The Top 50 Head Coaches Continued: NBA and NCAA Football Coaches
August 4, 2009 by dwil
So far in our top 50 head coaches we have the following hallowed team leaders:
From NCAA Hoops: 1. John Wooden. 2. Pat Summit. 3. Geno Auriemma. 4. John McLendon. 5. Bob Knight. 6. Mike Krzyzewski. 7. John Thompson. 8. Jim Calhoun. 9. Dean Smith.
From the NFL: 1. Paul Brown. 2. Bill Walsh. 3. Vince Lombardi. 4. George Halas. 5. Sid Gillman. 6. Bill Belichick. 7. Tom Landry. 8. Don Shula. 9. Chuck Noll
Next I’ll take a look at the top dogs from the NBA and NCAA Football. But first here is the Sporting News’ Top 50.
1. John Wooden, college basketball
2. Vince Lombardi, NFL
3. Bear Bryant, college football
4. Phil Jackson, NBA
5. Don Shula, NFL
6. Red Auerbach, NBA
7. Scotty Bowman, NHL
8. Dean Smith, college basketball
9. Casey Stengel, MLB
10. Knute Rockne, college football
11. Pat Summitt, women’s college basketball
12. Paul Brown, NFL
13. Joe Paterno, college football
14. George Halas, NFL
15. Chuck Noll, NFL
16. Bob Knight, college basketball
17. Joe Gibbs, NFL
18. Tom Landry, NFL
19. Mike Krzyzewski, college basketball
20. Bill Belichick, NFL
21. Adolph Rupp, college basketball
22. Joe McCarthy, MLB
23. Eddie Robinson, college football
24. Bobby Bowden, college football
25. John McGraw, MLB
26. Bill Walsh, NFL
27. Woody Hayes, college football
28. Connie Mack, MLB
29. Bud Wilkinson, college football
30. Pat Riley, NBA
31. Pete Newell, college basketball
32. Joe Torre, MLB
33. Bill Parcells, NFL
34. Tom Osborne, college football
35. Walter Alston, MLB
36. Bo Schembechler, college football
37. Toe Blake, NHL
38. Sparky Anderson, MLB
39. Al Arbour, NHL
40. Amos Alonzo Stagg, college football
41. Tony La Russa, MLB
42. Geno Auriemma, women’s college basketball
43. Dick Irvin, NHL
44. Ara Parseghian, college football
45. Chuck Daly, NBA
46. Bobby Cox, MLB
47. Hank Iba, college basketball
48. Tommy Lasorda, MLB
49. Gregg Popovich, NBA
50. Herb Brooks, NHL
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According to the Sporting News the top NBA coaches are: 4. Phil Jackson. 6. Red Auerbach. 30. Pat Riley, NBA. 45. Chuck Daly, NBA. 49. Gregg Popovich, NBA.
I have no beef with this list exactly as is ———- except. Chuck Daly must be last on the list.
Big Chief Zen Master Phil Jackson as the best of the best head coaches in the Lig. With 10 chips to his credit and three distinctly different teams, Jackson is a master. Sure he has had the benefit of Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O’Neal, and Kobe Bryant as floor directors, but the rest of the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers teams weren’t exactly 1980s Lakers or Boston Celtics teams. Other than the four aforementioned players the only ihall of fame material on Jackson’s Bulls or Lakers is, perhaps Dennis Rodman with Chicago – and if you really want to stretch on the LA squads, Robert Horry. Jackson was the firs head coach to win multiple championships without a dominant big man.
Red commandeered too many HOFers to name at a time when there were far fewer teams in the NBA, which meant pretty much every team had a dangerous player or two on the roster.
Pat Riley won with a star-studded LA Lakers team of Magic and Cap and Big Game James and had then play such an uptempo style they were called Showtime. Then he won a chip with a Miami Heat team that played at a snail’s pace. And you can say the refs stole the series from the Dallas Mavericks but in the end the Larry O’Brien went to the Miami Heat not the Dallas Mark Cubans.
My number three is Gregg Popovich. Pop has wrenched four chips from San Antonio teams loaded with David Robinson, Tim Duncan, and ummmm – oh yeah, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, an ancient Robert Horry, and and – oh yeah, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot, an ancient Steve Kerr (another Phil Jackson Bulls leftover), and Bruce Bowen. Only Parker and Ginobili have the chance to make the grade as superstars. The rest of the players I mentioned are good role players – period.
There are plenty of head coaches in the last 12 years that have put had more talent on the floor, but none have played the game with the efficiency of Pop’s squads.
Outside of being only one of seven head coaches to win back-to-back titles, having a top 15 regular season winning percentage, and a top 10 playoff wining percentage, there is nothing more I can say about Daly. How about this: Chuck Daly found a way to slow down MJ for a minute.
My NBA head coach list reads: 1. Phil Jackson. 2. Red Auerbach. 3. Pat Riley. 4. Gregg Popovich. 5. Chuck Daly.
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Next up we have NCAA Football coaches – and there are quite a few of them: 3. Bear Bryant. 10. Knute Rockne. 13. Joe Paterno. 23. Eddie Robinson. 24. Bobby Bowden. 27. Woody Hayes. 29. Bud Wilkinson. 34. Tom Osborne. 36. Bo Schembechler. 40. Amos Alonzo Stagg. 44. Ara Parseghian.
My first chore is to set the record straight. Today’s top FBS coaches are better than most of these coaches. Of the present coaches, Pete Carroll and Urban Meyer top the list. If these two stay in college football for the rest of their careers and have continued success, 10 years from now these two men will be on a “50 greatest head coaches” list.
Next, a little setting the record straight. I have heard in so many places that, after signing a contract extension that will net him $4 million annually until 2014, Urban Meyer is Florida’s highest-paid state employee.
Meyer is not a state employee. His paycheck comes from University of Florida Athletic Association funds, or booster money; since 2005, the UFAA has contributed $17.3 million to the university. Meyer is employed by the UFAA and not the state of Florida.
There is a difference.
Now back to the list….
The first head coach to go is Knute Rockne. Of all the college football head coaches Rockne’s 13 years are by far the fewest. And if 13 years is long enough to be qualified as a greatest college football head coach, Carroll and Meyer belong on the list.
Thirteen years is too few for modern coaches and it is too few for Rockne.
Beyond that, Rockne sold Notre Dame down the river in 1926 just to make some bucks. Rather than coach his Irish team against Carnegie Tech, Rockne decided to cover the Army-Navy game as a sports writer. Notre Dame was upset 19-0 and the loss cost the Irish a shot at the national championship that season.
Rockne also used the services of professional football players (Murray Sperber and other authors have chronicled this practice in his books on NCAA Football and on Notre Dame). Rockne used pros after the NCAA made the practice illegal. However, because this was the Fighting Irish, no punishment was meted out to Rockne and the university. Using pros to play against college kids? Rockne must go.
Ther is, though, a man who coached a total of 16 years in college and had much more influence on the college game than did Rockne; his name is Bob Devaney.
Devaney spent five years at the University of Wyoming and accrued a 35-10-5 record. He then moved to the University of Nebraska where he went 101–20–2 (.829) in 11 seasons, with 9 bowl appearances and two national chips. His Nebraska teams won or shared eight Big 8 titles. And Devaney was 32-2-2 (.916) in his final three seasons at NU.
Devaney’s overall college head coaching record at Wyoming and Nebraska was 136–30–7 (.806).
During Devaney’s tenure Nebraska played in “the Game of the Century,” the famous 1971 Nebraska-Oklahoma game in which eventual Heisman Trophy winner Johnny Rodgers wrecked the Sooners and led the Huskers to a 35-31 win. Devaney also hired Tom Osborne as offensive coordinator and later named Osborne his successor when Devaney moved on to become Nebraska’s athletic director.
Joe Paterno is the number one college football head coach in my book. Paul “Bear” Bryant coached Alabama brilliantly, but found out just how far behind the times he was when USC visited the Crimson Tide in 1970. Sam Cunningham tore up Alabama’s defense in the Trojans easy 42-21 win. Only after this did Bryant integrate his Crimson Tide team.
Yes, Bryant won six national chips in 25 years at Alabama (1961, 1964, 1965, 1973, 1978, and 1979) and thirteen SEC chips. The first three of those championships were segregation-era chips and the last three came after Bryant switched the ‘Bama offense to the Wishbone, an offense long used by Oklahoma and Nebraska (in 1973 Alabama split the national championship with Notre Dame). In fact, the first year Alabama ran the Wishbone, 1971, they lost to Nebraska 38-6 in the Orange Bowl game which was for the national championship.
When Jo Pa takes the field this season it will be his 60th season on the Penn State sidelines as a head coach. Sixty - and his 43rd as head coach of the Nittany Lions, passing Amos Alonzo Stagg for most seasons as a head coach at one college. Presently, Paterno’s record stand at 383 wins, 127 losses, and 3 ties. The 383 wins are the most by any DI head coach. Paterno has led the Nittany Lions to 36 bowl appearances in his 43 years and won two national championships.
I differ in the placing of Bud Wilkinson and Tom Osborne. These are tow of the greatest minds in college football and TSN did not give them enough credit for their advancing strategy in college football. Wilkinson amassed a 145-29-4 (82.6%) overall record and at one point his Sooners won 47 straight games from 1953-1957, an NCAA record by a long shot. This streak was preceded by a 31-game winning streak from 1948-1950. Additionally, Wilkinson’s teams went 12 years, from 1947-1958 without losing a Big Eight conference game.
Wilkinson was the first head coach to have his own television show (The “Bud Wilkinson Show”), the first head coach to run a, down to the minute, structured practice, and was the first head coach to stress intelligence as a criteria for recruits along with athletic ability, and invented the “no-huddle” offense. Wilkinson coached Oklahoma from 1947-1963.
At the University of Nebraska, Tom Osborne was responsible for the popularization of the I-Formation offense which Nebraska used to lead the nation in nearly every year of Osborne 25-year tenure as Cornhuskers head coach.
Osborne’s teams never won fewer than nine games in a season and only Joe Paterno reached 200 wins faster than Osborne. But Osborne reached 250 wins faster than any other college coach. His final five years as a head coach Osborne led the Cornhuskers to a phenomenal 60-3 record – two of those losses came in the 1996 season – and three national championships. And Osborne’s 1994 and 1995 Nebraska teams teams stand as the only undefeated, consensus back-to-back national champions in D1-A football since Bud Wilkinson’s Oklahoma Sooners 1955-1956 teams.
Tom Osborne’s record was 255-49-3.
The rest of the list is fine by me – and I am happy to see that Eddie Robinson made the list.
My NCAA Football head coach list looks like this: 1. Joe Paterno. 2. Bud Wilkinson. 3 Tom Osborne. 4. Paul “Bear” Bryant. 5. Eddie Robinson. 6. Bobby Bowden. 7. Woody Hayes. 8. Bo Schembechler. 9. Amos Alonzo Stagg. 10. Ara Parseghian.
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Previous article:
The Sporting News Top 50 Coaches: Beginning a Revised Top 50
McClendon simply can’t be behind Summit and Auriemma — especially if you’ve used essentially the same criteria to slot Gilman.
I think you alluded to that on a previous post.
Ok — hold up…Tom Osborne?
You’ve got to be kidding. He’s The Coach that Tommy Frazier Built.
Before those last few seasons, Tom Osbourne was the Dean Smith of college football. He had all the talent in the world and routinely lost in big games to either Oklahoma or Miami. And the Big 8 of that era is nothing like it is today. The conference was full of door mats. Texas was in the SWC. The only team that ever game Nebraska any competition was Oklahoma. Barry Switzer was 12-5 vs. Osborn. Osborn was 13-13 vs. OU.
Imagine that…Osborn has 49 career losses and 12 of them came at the hands of Switzer. There was one must win game on their schedule every year – and he lost it as often as he won.
Touchdown Tommy is really the hero here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommie_Frazier
That dude was recruited precisely because the Cornhuskers were getting run out of the stadium on a regular. Before signing Frazier, Nebraska had lost SEVEN bowl games in a row (4 to Florida State; 2 to Miami). Frazier, not Osborn, changed all that.
Excuse the rant — but I’ve been a huge OU and FSU fan for years. One of my best friends loved Nebraska — so we used to go AT IT!!!! It’s all good now since they both can’t win the big game. That damn Stoops!!
T3-
Sorry but if Osborne lost the OU game as much as he won, that means Switzer did, too.
As far as Tommy Frazier is concerned, Osborne did have to want him at the school and recruit him. And, as you know, recruiting is as big a part of college coaching as anything.
Now, Dean Smith HAD the players and still couldn’t win – and you can’t say that about Osborne. When he got what he wanted he won – period.
On McLendon…
I wrote on a comment on the previous article that O would reconsider the placement of Summit and Auriemma. With that said, while McLendon’s offenses were revolutionary and are still used today, Summit and Auriemma took an anonymous game and brought it to not only national prominence but national relevance. Additionally, they revolutionized the way women’s basketball is played.
I don’t know if you watched the early days of the WNBA, but in those first three years, outside of the Houston Comets, NCAA basketball when played by Tennessee and UConn was a more fluid than was pro ball.
The importance of two people to taking a sport on their backs and raising it up like Summit and Auriemma have cannot be underestimated. They, largely took all the heat when anything was sour, so they received all the praise when things went well. Now, though, we see just how good they are as coaches. The best girls in the country don’t gravitate to their schools for shits, giggles, and parties – though they get plenty of that because they win so damn much!
So, while McLendon’s contribution to hoops, in general, must be given its props, I feel that when two people succeed in spite of the perception of their sport by the public and media, plus advance the way the game is played, plus stay on top once they raise everyone else up, is ultimately of greater overall importance than only being revolutionary tactically.
And that’s not to say McLendon could not have turned out to be the greatest NCAA head coach ever, but we know what worked against him having the chance. And unfortunatel there is nothing I can use to project what he might have done if given a fair opportunity to coach an elite college hoops program.
D —
Actually, it means that Osborn coached 26 times vs. Oklahoma and only 17 times vs. Switzer. 13-13 vs. OU; 5-12 vs. Switzer.
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I’m not arguing about Osborn as a recruiter. I’m simply saying that he had tremendous talent and they were unable to get over the top until Frazier came. They lost 7 bowl games in a row. In many of those games, they were flat out smashed and embarassed. Osborn gets credit for bringing in Frazier, but the Florida gravy train had already run his ass over for 7 years.
At best, he had a belated reaction to a trend that continues to define the sport. Nebraska didn’t change much of anything with Frazier — but if you remember him, he was a monster. He could fly. He had moves. He also had power. I remember him running folks over even though he wasn’t the biggest fella in the world — and he was a tremendous leader.
Sometimes a player comes along that defines a team or an institution. Frazier was that guy. In the same way that Vince Young wrote the script on how to beat Oklahoma, Frazier did it a decade earlier. Mack Brown won’t be on this list any time soon and its because we all have total recall of Roy Williams and Dusty Dovaracek and Tommie Harris and others smashing up his vaunted offense – and him being stuck without much of an answer. Vince changed his legacy, but not enough for me to get it twisted.
The same goes for Tom Osborn. Nebraska was a Top 5 program for years — but they didn’t get golden until a youth from Bradenton decided to roll through for a while.
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I would argue that the expansion of women’s hoops is a function of the Title IX suit. In other words, someone had to coach those teams. It doesn’t mean Summit and Auriemma aren’t great coaches, but the growth was a function of more and more young girls being able to participate in programs that were unavailable a generation before.
Given that context, I believe that Summit should be uncoupled from Auriemma and credited with doing some real serious work in building her program at UT. Auriemma is amazing at what he does, but I think his success is comparable to coaches who dominated in the 40′s and 50′s in men’s sports when the number of competitors and elite teams were similar.
To be fair, Auriemma didn’t arrive at Connecticut until 1985. By then, the tide was already turning. The nation had seen the first athletic superstar female baller: Cheryl Miller. The nation watched her win a national championship and also win a gold medal. ESPN didn’t cover games as extensively as they do now, but the most critical pieces were in place.
Summit was the one who was on the firing line when those Title IX dollars rolled in and folks were bitching and moaning about “reverse discrimination” and wasting money on “girls.” Surely Geno heard his share of that, but by the time he arrived at UConn, he was a benefactor of the greatest basketball machine in the nation (north of the Mason-Dixon line). Geno was in the Big East with Title IX money and a bunch of SLOW JESUITS steeped in old school notions of what women could and could not do. It’s no surprise that a secular titan emerged in women’s sports while the religious oriented institutions like Georgetown, Villanova, Boston College, St. John’s and Seton Hall trailed behind for so long.
Geno’s path to the top was blazed by Title IX and ESPN’s Big Monday.
As for Title IX, the Times wrote:
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I give Summit a great deal more credit than I am willing to give Geno. And I’m not hating — I just think they have significantly different experiences based on substantially different circumstances.
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I feel you on McClendon — I appreciate the nuances — but I think his winning legacy can’t be minimized either. I believe that most folks who were around back in the day would argue that his NAIA teams were as good as the all-white NCAA teams — and he won 3 consecutive championships.
He learned the game from Naismith and coached a style that we’ve seen work for John Thompson at Georgetown, for Nolan Richardson at Arkansas, for Rick Pitino at Kentucky and Louisville, and many others.
At the end of the day, I guess I’m just comfortable awarding “position,” particularly in a society that denies access and position based on biology.
Holla back.
T3-
On Osborne… Okay he was 5-12 against Switzer, my bad. But he was still even, in total. And the Switzer years were some of the most nefariously crooked years in OUs history – even Barry admitted that.
And I still don’t understand how Frazier “made” Osborne any more than Osborne “made” Frazier. If this was true, how is it possible that Dean Smith can be a heralded head coach with a full cadre of legendary players? And did Tyler Hansbrough “make” Roy Williams this year? Did Magic Johnson “make” Jud Heathcoate? Did any player on a championship team “make” John Wooden? I use hoops because there ere so many fewer players, it is much easier to attempt that line of logic.
And you cannot compare Mack Brown – a glorified car salesman – to Tom Osborne. Osborne was hired by Devaney to rejuvenate his offense and was responsible for Devaney’s last great years when he ran the offense for Devaney.
Additionally, Frazier played in Osborne’s offensive system while Brown altered his system to fit Young.
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I can’t at all agree with the idea that “someone had to coach those teams.” Somebody had to assess the talent, recruit the talent to Storrs Ct., then coach up the talent so that the players would at least reach their potential and then must be flexible enough to either field talent that fits a system or change with the talent recruited. Finally, the head coach must win consistently championships with that talent. All of that is the measure of a legendary college head coach and Auriemma fits the bill, Title IX or not.
Additionally:.
The nation didn’t watch Miller do anything in NCAA hoops.
She was a freak but there was no March Madness for women, no USA Today special section for the women’s tournament, not March Madness specials in the run up to the tournament. no wall-to-wall airing of conference tournaments, no weekday airing of games.
And the Olympics is always well covered, so if there is an American athlete to be spotlighted he or she will be, no matter the sport.
It is also not at all true that UConn, in 1985 to 1999 when UConn’s men’s team won its first chip was the greatest basketball machine in the nation north of the Mason-Dixon line. There was Syracuse, St. John’s, BC, Maryland, Indiana, Michigan, Kansas, UNLV, and UCLA.
In addition to everything else, Auriemma had to have an acute sense of the moment in order to play the foil to Summit – something he enjoys and she, at least publicly, hates. without Auriemma to push her into the spotlight and push her buttons to make her give controversial quotes, and to push her teams on the court, Summit is not seen in the same light, not seen as human as she is portrayed. AND UConn became, and is, better than Tennessee; gets better players who play for a more flexible coach and enjoy playing for the coach (notice how Summit has not at all yet adapted to today’s teenage girl and young woman – something no one dare talk about when it comes to Summit).
Finally, this isn’t some kind of gender-based affirmative action position I’m assigning the two coaches and actually resent the insinuation in your last sentence. I am frustrated by the thought that, after all time you’ve read my writings you think I would ever toss somebody a bone and elevate them to a position they did not earn because, what? They coach women instead of men? I’m not able to even wrap my brain around what it could be that I’m “awarding”….
That is what awarding “position,” particularly in a society that denies access and position based on biology really means; that I am giving Summit and Auriemma a spot in the annals of great NCAA Hoops head coaches they haven’t earned.
If Tyler Hansbrough had dominated his competition well enough to be MVP (I thought he sucked this year — didn’t you?) AND if this was William’s first championship, then the answer might very well be yes. (By the way, this analogy is only applicable to coaches who’ve had considerable talent on a routine basis who ultimately won championships late in their careers. That would exclude Jud and Big John. Wooden coached for years before he blew up, but he didn’t have the level of talent early that he did late.)
Tyler isn’t the guy who lifted the monkey off of Roy’s back. Frazier is unequivocally the guy who did so for Osborn. Moreover, Frazier’s game was based on his speed and agility — things that I am CERTAIN he picked up in Bradenton and not in Lincoln. Isn’t that why they wanted him in the first place?
Besides, Tommy Frazier at Miami or Florida State or Oklahoma probably wins a national championship. Osborn without Frazier — who knows. Who knows if Eric Crouch gets to do what he did if Frazier didn’t set the table. Frankly, I’d put Pete Carroll ahead of Tom Osborn.
As for crossing the line, there is no doubt that Oklahoma did this on a regular basis. The question, perhaps it should be put to Lawrence Phillips and Christian Peter and others, is to what extent did Nebraska do the same. I don’t know that Nebraska’s rapists were substantially better people than Oklahoma’s robbers. That’s not an area of expertise for me. I’ll defer to folks who followed both programs more closely. I will say, though, that on the surface, Osborn seemed to be a moral guy than Switzer (not hard to do — LOL). Then again, didn’t his boy Solich get the boot for knockin’ up a cheerleader even though he had a higher winning percentage than Osborn?
Finally, a true measurement of Frazier’s transcendance doesn’t boil down to whether or not he played in Osborn’s system. Frazier taught Nebraska how to beat SPEED teams from Florida — something that Osborn’s system had been unable to do for 7 years. So, in the fullest sense of the word, TF transcended Osborn’s system — and was so far beyond it that he dragged the entire team along for an unbelievable ride. He and VY are the same in that they changed the paradigm of how their arch competitors were perceived and attacked. That’s the bottom line.
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Take a look at UConn’s competition in the Big East. It essentially boils down to 1 school (Rutgers). What do UConn and Rutgers have in common? They’re both secular schools in the northeast whose programs were built when football was not on the radar. They’re both good NOW — but not when the women’s programs were taking off.
UConn, given their secular advantage, should have faced competition from Syracuse and Pittsburgh in the old Big East. I am theorizing that they didn’t because those institutions didn’t make similar commitments to the program. Auriemma’s true genius may actually be OFF THE COURT.
Surely you’re not suggesting that Cheryl toiled in obscurity? I saw her plenty of times when she was at USC — and I’m not the nation, but I also saw her face plastered all over the place. And she was featured in USA Today — even if it wasn’t in a special section for the NCAAs. Miller didn’t play during the current era, but she also stood out because of her talents and the limited coverage at the time. She was hardly invisible.
Dude — I was talking about the women. That would be assinine to say about men.
All true — but that’s not what the list is about. Or is it? For me, it’s a bit too subjective. You did mention the Bradshaw-Noll thing, so perhaps you do put some serious value on that sort of thing.
You misunderstood what I said. The person that I was talking about who was denied access and position was John B. McClendon. I think you thought I was talking about gender — even though I said at the top that my criticism of Auriemma (moreso than Summitt) is really about other factors. In fact, my entire last section is all about McClendon.
As I said before, to me, time and the overall number of competitors serve as the baseline for me devaluing (relatively speaking, of course) what UConn and UT have done. That’s why I came with the Title IX stats. I don’t submit it to take anything away from Auriemma — but for me, it contextualizes what he’s done. When you consider that with all the Catholic schools in the northeast who’ve fed the Big East for years — and the funnel of Christ the King players running to UT, you have to ask — why didn’t the Jesuits make this move first? I think he faced substantially less competition than just about every coach on the list.
You know have a compelling list when it generates comments like this. Wait till the Bobby Knight folks get going.
T3-
I’m moving on after this….
-Cheryl Miller, according to an SI Vault search, had exactly one cover – and she shared that with Bruce Dalrymple and Mark Price of Ga. Tech. A Google search for history of women’s college hoops shows that during Miller’s playing days only the women’s championship game was shown on television. And I barely remember ESPN in 1983-86 but Miler sure wasn’t on television on the network since regular season games were not televised.
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NU had its share of run amok players. too,…. in fact, sometimes the UO-NU Friday high noon game was more a thugfest than it was a slugfest, if you believed the newspapers of the day.
I gave a few examples and you cherry-picked Hansbrough-Williams. Michael Jordan made Dean Smith but Frazier did not make Osborne as you insist. and here’s why:
See, I’m from Nebraska and KNOW that Osborne lost to to southeast schools in the Orange Bowl enough h to establish an outpost on the West Coast and Southern Cali to be specific; it had nothing at all to do with OU.
Frazier didn’t teach Osborne anything about speed and it is ridiculous fro you to say so. Osborne began recruiting out west to compete w/ Miami’s and Florida State’s speed, Until the final seven years of his career he won with Black and White players largely from Nebraska. Just take a look at where his skill players came from his final seven seasons (1991 on).
-Frazier started at QB from 1992-1995 and had a 2-2 bowl record. Osborne started Frazier as a freshman and played him all four years of his career. It was not until his junior year that Frazier mastered Osborne’s offense – and THAT is when Nebraska won consecutive chips.
So, again to say Frazier made Osborne is wrong.
-From 1973-88, Switzer’s years, Osborne’s teams won seven conference chips, while Switzer’s teams won nine.
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Wait. You did write “north of the Mason-Dixon Line” and there a more schools than just Big East colleges north of that line. And it’s not as if all of Auriemma’s players come from the Northeast. He must compete with all of those colleges for players (see below for more).
Auriemma has had one losing season, his first (1985) and won his first conference title in 1989. Like all college coaches taking over crappy programs, he built his program and rep and won his first national chip in 1995.
More….
Every successful head coach in college dominates its nearest athlete-producing local scene and develops a national pipeline from some region around the country. Auriemma outhustled other Big East coaches – he outhustled Summit, too – that’s always been the key to his success, rather than slow moving Jesuits at Catholic colleges (like Notre Dame?).
And I thought the biology statement was a general concluding statement mixing the two … sorry about that.
Since UConn began to dominate the Big East women’s hoops scene -1994-2002 they won every conference title – ND was the runner-up four times, Rutgers and Seton Hall twice and BC once.
I think you made the point for me. My first post says it all. Moreover, I’ve already made the case about the impact of Southeastern teams on recruiting.
I said (probably three or four times) that Frazier’s gift to Nebraska was laying out a blueprint to beat speed teams (Miami and FSU) that had beaten Nebraska SIX TIMES in 7 seasons before Frazier came to town. We’re not arguing that are we?
Frazier was a 3-time MVP in bowl games.
What would expect? They were the only two “real” teams in the conference. I made that point up top as well — and Osborn didn’t dominate his primary competition and didn’t establish his championship legacy until Frazier came. From 1973 to 1988, Nebraska won ZERO national championships. Oklahoma won THREE. Don’t you recall how much heat Osborn was getting for failing tow in a single national championship in all those years? Perhaps you think Frazier was merely another cog in the wheel. I don’t think he was. I think he was a demonstrably different talent who took that team to another level.
Clearly I’m not suggesting Osborn was a bum. I’m merely suggesting 3 things:
1) Nebraska had 1 tough game on their schedule most years. It was Oklahoma. He was .500 in that game and was 5-12 against his most famous rival (Switzer).
2) Nebraska, for all their success, was routinely pounded in bowl games for SEVEN years — and principally by 2 schools (FSU – 4 times, Miami – 2 times). They solved this by getting a QB from Florida named Tommy Frazier.
3) Frazier is the only 3 time MVP of the national championship game and he was a 2-time national champion. He was a superstar QB who lifted the monkey off of Osborn’s back and made people forget that Osborn had been there since 1973 without bringing home the hardware.
To put this to bed — what do you call a coach with a 255-49-3, no championships and a losing record in bowl games? I don’t know, but you don’t call him a legend. Tommy changed all that.
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I didn’t cherry pick your examples. Why would I do that? I actually took the time to explain why the ones I didn’t use didn’t apply. I used the analogy as I constructed it. If you want to say that Jordan made Dean Smith, ok — I wouldn’t…especially when I agree with your position about how fluky that 1982 championship game was to begin with.
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I feel like Denny Green (LOL). “If you wanna crown him, then go again and crown his ass, but Osborn is who I thought he was.” ROTFLMBAO.
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I largely agree with everything you’ve said about Auriemma and UConn’s growth here.
By the time ND joined the Big East and provided any competition for UConn, Auriemma was already King of the Road. I think their dominance at the conference level is an indicator of two things — the quality of their program, and the relative lack of depth in the conference. I believe that the latter will surely change over time if sufficient revenues are available to support strong programs. Bottom line, Geno was the firstest with the mostest and deserves credit for that.
D & T3 – Honestly, I could read you two hashing this out all day. Have y’all ever considered teaming up on a podcast for this ish? Seriously, I would listen.
That’s not a bad idea STN.
STN:
You know I can’t get this type of flow just any old place. Who the hell else knows about every sport and who played where for the last 4 decades? I have to come here to get my fix.
I know sometimes y’all wanna show a brother the door, though. LOL!!!
S2N, T3-
Believe me I’ve thought about it, too! There are a few radio and/or podcast combinations derived directly from SOMM commenters that would be interesting. Hell, there’s an entire days worth of programming that could come from here (wanna produce S2N?) I’m chuckling, too.
T3-
Damn, this is ridiculous. I guess Mike Vick made Frank Beamer because he was transcendent and won a bowl MVP as the losing QB. I guess Carson Palmer made Pete Carroll and whoever the first QB John Robinson had when USC won its first chip made Robinson, too. and Tim Tebow made Urban Meyer because no one wants to remember that Chris Leak won Meyer’s first chip.
And Joe Montana made… and John Elway made… But MJ didn’t make Dean Smith, that game was a fluke.
Man, c’mon.
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Tell you what. Here’s how I really feel about UNC, OU, how women’s hoops are viewed, and the Steelers… and it has nothing to do with you, really it doesn’t.
Any Black man who kisses a fucking basketball coach on the top of his head like he’s the fucking pope can kiss my ass. And the coach? Fuck him, too, for grinning like the cheshire cat that just ate sambo after the kiss.
And that’s beyond having the best players most years and winning it all nearly never.
Then, to hell with Oklahoma for paying players like it was 1999 only it was 1979.
People who coach women will never be recognized for their achievements as true sports pioneers because if the sport doesn’t come to the table fully formed and sanctioned by ESPN, it doesn’t exist – kinda like Cheryl Miller, despite her accomplishments against largely crappy competition.
Oh, and the Steelers? There is not enough space to tell how dirty the Rooney family is, I don’t care how many Black head coaches they hire when the team owner is the head of the “Interview a Black Guy Week” thinker-upper that moved the NFL past 1955 to 1965.
The Pittsburgh Steelers? Chuck Noll?
Think Joe Gilliam.
Now that’s really it for me…. There are tow new posts up and I will not look at any ore comments regarding this portion of the list, so save any rebuttals for when the whole list comes out – or not.
That’s not the deal. It’s for guys who coached with GREAT talent — FOR YEARS — and didn’t win. That’s it. I’m not suggesting that EVERY great player makes EVERY coach. I’m suggesting that this 1 transcendant player is the primary reason that Tom Osborn is even in this conversation because he obscures a 5-12 record vs. Switzer and an 0-6 record vs. those Florida teams in those bowl games. Frazier obscures the fact that Osborn watched Switzer win 3 championships while competing with roughly the same talent.
That’s why this doesn’t apply to Joe Montana or Elway. Walsh and Shanahan were never subjected to watching their nemesis pound their ass for more than a decade. Neither was Pete Carroll or Urban Meyer. I could dig on John Rob, but that will have to wait.
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Aren’t all families that own football teams and race tracks dirty?
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I think I’m much less offended than you are. I’m ghost.
what’s wrong with MJ having affection for his college coach? Wasn’t he the first coach at UNC to recruit a black player (Charlie Scott)? Didn’t he push for equal rights for blacks too? If MJ so loves Dean like that, then so be it. I don’t have a problem with that like I don’t have a problem with guys loving Big John. Now they have love for different reasons, but love is love…
And I wouldn’t short Chuck Daly, either. He did more than “slow down” Jordan. If not for some bad luck, he took a team whose best player was 6’1 and would’ve won 3 straight rings, before 23 did it…