PEDs, The Baseball Hall of Fame and Monday Morning Armchair Racism
June 8, 2009 by dwil
I, unfortunately, did not record Mike and Mike in the Morning today. Mike Greenberg and Mike Golic entered into a In a discussion about “the steroid era” and how so many baseball writers want to selectively eliminate certain players they arbitrarily feel took steroids or performance-enhancing drugs.
Golic rightly said that if voters want to keep suspected PED users out of the game or create a special wing for players who are suspected of using PEDs, they need or needed to do the same for players who used or were suspected of using amphetamines, players who corked bats, and scuffed baseballs. But the big one, Golic intimated, is racism. The former NFL players said that if people think using amphetamines did not greatly aid players they are fooling themselves. He also said that racism absolutely needs to be addressed by baseball writers; that because of racism in MLB we will never truly know how good any of the players from the “Segregation Era” were.
Mike Greenberg then dismissed Golic’s statements about racism in total by saying baseball has created a special wing for the Black players who were active during the Segregation Era. From that moment on Greenberg never mentioned racism as one of baseball’s more sordid “eras.”
Now, I have railed against racism in the media since the beginning of Sports On My Mind. And really, I am sick of doing it. Just as I am sick of pointing out the effects of gambling on sports and how easy it is to fix games, and how various people in a and around sports have, over the decades, intimated that many games are, in fact, fixed.
But with racism, the matter obviously transcends anything else in sports because it is a reflection of the United States, just as it is a reflection of Western culture.
Why is racism so damn important?
Racism is one of the foundational aspects of Western culture. Racism is the “automatic” every person in the world must deal with each day. Either you are a beneficiary of racism or you are a victim of it. Either you fight against racism or you are a progenitor of the foundational aspects of racism. Every day of your life. No questions asked, no way around it.
And by dismissing racism in baseball’s Hall of Fame, Greenberg is a progenitor of the Western tradition of racism.
But I know making that flat statement is not enough. People who feel they are not racist, people who are racist, and people who just want us to move on from racism by not dealing with it will defend Greenberg.
And how will they do this? Well, the context of the conversation that allows Greenberg to dismiss racism in the Hall of Fame is that Golic contextualized the PED suspects argument by averring that if voters want to keep suspected PED users out of the game or create a special wing for players who are suspected of using PEDs, they need to to the same for other events or actions in which baseball players cheat the game.
They will say that because Greenberg mentioned the special wing in the Hall for Black players from the Segregation Era he is correct in not further mentioning racism in his subsequent statements.
But this is a classic racist ruse.
There is a “special wing” for Black players of the all-White baseball era.
For the ——————- BLACK PLAYERS.
That the separate wing is for those men who were forced to play in a separate league – Negro Leagues – from the majors just to make a living playing the game is an act so egregious that the Baseball Hall of Fame should be boycotted daily.
That wing in the baseball hall is a classic case of racist, blaming the victim.
The simple fact is that the special wing should be for the White players who compiled their statistics and played their careers separate from Black players, not the other way around. Think about it.
Does any baseball writer, any fan, or Greenberg want there to be a special wing for the so-called victims who would be the players who made it to the Hall but did not use PEDs?
Obviously not.
So why is there a special wing for the victims of racism in baseball? Because baseball, like the rest of our society, like Greenberg specifically, is inherently racist.
Please don’t give me some crap about how Greenberg or certain baseball writers, or whoever, “doesn’t see color,” or counts so-and-so Black person as his very close friend or friends. None of that matters and none of it counts in a “points for” column for Greenberg and people like him; for the openly liberal or liberal-progressive faction of Whites.
That the victim can be blamed without thought and, in fact, be used as an excuse to dismiss the racist aspects of baseball and its hall of fame, is laughable – if it wasn’t so damn sad. That a person like Greenberg can spend his life loving baseball and thinking he is not a racist but fail to see how unconscionable it is for the Baseball Hall of Fame to create a special wing for the victims of racism and not the racists while advocating for creating a special wing for users of PEDs is sickening.
And to a Black person it says we are putting our efforts to change humanity in the wrong place.
All the dollars, research, and layperson energy spent trying to cure cancer, AIDS, and a host of other diseases needs to be spent, redoubled and spent again seeking a cure for racism. In fact more Black people and minorities per capita in the U.S. and more black people and “cultural minorities” around the world die from those diseases or from environments that create those diseases than do Whites.
So, the question is, how can we find cures for those diseases if we do not first cure racism?
Answer: we cannot.
And if people like the Baseball Writers Of America and people like Mike Greenberg, who count themselves as “anti-racists,” cannot deal with racism in the Baseball Hall of Fame, how can we expect at all to deal with the murderous sickness that is socio-cultural racism?
Again and sadly, the answer is, we cannot.
110 percent of white people are racist. if you are white you are racist. this is, more or less, the basis of this argument as it sounds to me. Now i know D-wil you will jump me. Call me a myriad of names. mply i don’t get it. even go so far as to call me racist myself. who knows? you might bring up the Brock Lesnar thing.
But, D-Wil, there is a vast gulf between stupidity and racism. Greenberg’s argument, which I missed as well, is STUPID. it is not RACIST. this needs to stop. you need to stop jumping to level 12 anytime anyone says something you don’t disagree with.
but by all means…. call the bi-racial guy who works as a social worker for a non-profit in Bed Stuy and works exclusively with LGBT youth (the one group that even black men treat with contempt) a racist. knock yourself out.
I don’t understand what you want the Hall of Fame to do.
I haven’t been there in ten years, but I don’t think there is a “Negro League” wing. I thought Negro Leaguers who get elected get their plaques in the same wing as everyone else. (I could be wrong). My understanding is that a Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer. If anything – and I am going to get killed for this – the Negro Leagues might be a tad over-represented right now because it seemed like anyone Buck Owen had a friendship with got voted in for a few years.
There are exhibits on the Negro League, of course.
One thing I’ve always thought baseball should do is further divide stats into eras. Everyone understands that the “deadball” era stats are impossible to compare to the modern era stats. I think there should be a designation for pre and post Intergration. And I would be fine with marking off the PEDs Era as well, because god only knows what those numbers mean now.
D – It tires me out sometimes too talking about it, but these things have to be said by someone, and you do a damn good job of it.
Myron – think you mean Buck Leonard.
Greenburg is a f#^*ing idiot. He puts no thought into what he says. I might not agree with Golic a lot, but he certainly has more perspective than Greenburg.
I understand what D was saying about Greenburg dismissing racism. How do we know that all of those records set back then would have been set had black players been allowed to play beside their white contemporaries? Babe Ruth may have hit less home runs. Joe D might have come up against a Negro League pitcher and his streak may have only reached 30 games. We may be talking about Josh Gibson hitting 800, and Sachel Page having 40 wins in a season. Instead, anything that Negro Leaguers did is considered second class. They played the same game, but they didn’t play in the “Majors” and because of that, historians punish them.
It’s comedy these days trying to listen to baseball purists. This is similar to other sports such as football and basketball. Like with the so-called asterisk for future HOF’s and ‘roids, there ought to be one with the segregationists due to their fear of being overran by “the lesser ones”. Who knows, some of the highly acclaimed HOFers would be 2nd or 3rd tier players without the separate fences…
Greenburg has been dissemenating his brand of “stupidity” for way to long to just dismiss it as such. At some point, you have to stop giving these cats a pass. Particularly here, where not only is it easy to recognize the racism, but his own on air partner-the “big dumb one” no less-was able to call BS on him quite effectively. F*ck Mike and Mike.
I can’t even get past the fact that Greenberg said that. I give Golic a ton of credit for going where a whole lot of “those” writers never go, only “us” writers. But seriously, did Greenberg really equate being black with taking a banned performance-enhancing substance? There is this, though: there isn’t a special wing in Cooperstown for Negro Leaguers; what they’ve gotten for decades is a special election – as in, they’re not on the “regular” ballot every year. Meanwhile, to Myron – great, long-overdue idea for designating pre-1947 as a different era from everything since. Bad idea believing the Negro League are over-represented in the Hall – it’s the opposite, with all the pre-1947 stiffs that are in who wouldn’t have been immortals on a level playing field.
i dont watch or listen to mike and mike. they try too hard to be funny. i do give golic a lot of credit. he will buck the trend from time to time and not tow the company line. i remember one instance, they were discussing the bonds’ HR chase and the usual PEDs issue. however, greenberg comments were particular vicious. golic straight up asked, “what do you against bonds?you seem to be taking this whole thing a little personally.”
to which greenberg admitted during his time in san fran, bonds repeatedly denied him interviews.
That came out funny, and I don’t know why I said Buck Owen. Weird.
What I meant was, there is some discussion that Buck Leonard became the final authority on which Negro Leaguers got in, and he may have have had some bias. It’s not that big a deal and clearly the Hall needs to show that part of baseball in its fullness.
Also, Barry Bond is the devil.
Pissed off Pittsburgh Pirates fan who has had nothing to smile about since 1992.
Perspective. There is much more to say on it, but it’d just get too long. I’ve read you for a long time and realized a while back that I just don’t have the same perspective. Some things have been pointed out that I never realized before. Not everyone figures this out, and the issue with a person’s perspective on things colors not just racism but how the media treats the athletes. Which is why you find Golic more on the pro athlete side in most of the articles I see you bring up.
I’d never listen to that shit, so you’re a better (more patient?) man than I.
Just two quick ones:
1) We know baseball writers are largely a delusional lot. Take Bob Costas. His boyhood hero was an alcoholic who was so dependent on drugs to reverse the impact of his depressant du jour that he played his entire career hopped up on something or other. Costas’ take — deafening silence.
2) The line of demarcation with respect to “racism” in MLB isn’t 1947. In fact, that’s the Line of Experimentation. It’s not the line in which a representative sample of or critical mass of Black players played in the major leagues. 1947 is merely the tipping point, but it’s not quite the right place to begin dumping the affirmative traction records of white ball players. I’d suggest beginning the great toss in the late 1960′s. But, then, that puts you smack dab in the middle of Amphetamine Alley.
What to do, what to do?
“The simple fact is that the special wing should be for the White players who compiled their statistics and played their careers separate from Black players, not the other way around. Think about it.”
yes, D-Wil, you are exactly right. If the Negro-League players were the ones that didn’t want to integrate, then the reverse would be true. Intellectually it makes complete and perfect sense, and yet it only seems radical to some because we have been conditioned since birth to accept the current format of not questioning the current order. The request for asterisks today just makes it that much more audacious.
——————————————————————–
Myron,
You should get “killed” for your comment — because it couldn’t be more wrong. Why would you not consider the opposite is true? Let’s look at this rationally. For the most part, only the National league really integrated through the 1950′s.
Now did you know that upon IMMEDIATE arrival from 1949-1969, 17 of the 21 MVP award winners in the National League were African-American/Hispanic.
Read that again.
If blacks dominated the NL upon very first entry, does it not stand to reason that the same (or close) would be true for the previous 21 or 47 years. This was at a time before basketball and football was really popular and would drain the best black athletic talent. At a time where the ONLY relatively fair opportunity was athletics.
There are MANY Negro League players not in the HOF who should be there, and if you like, I can provide those names for you.
What can be said for white ball players pre-1947 is that there was higher quality of pitching on THE BACK END of the rotation. Negro League players who crossed mid-career like Monte Irvin would admit this. But some of the top pitchers like Satchel, Smokey joe Williams, Rube Foster, and others would dominate anybody. And given the ridiculous amount of games he pitched, I’d go toe-to-toe with anybody that Satch was the greatest pitcher in baseball history. He went a couple of seasons where he damn near pitched every day — and dominantly.
Dwil, I agree with you 110%. I say place an asterik on the plaques of ALL those who played in the segregated “major leagues”. Further, no one who played in the segregated era can ever be labeled the best of all times.
okori,
C’mon man. You have been on this board too long to pull that straw man bullshit. You know damn well that D-Wil wrote nothing of the sort. Don’t twist his words. There are enough other new comers who will do that. But let’s get to it.
“But, D-Wil, there is a vast gulf between stupidity and racism.”
Um no — there isn’t.
Benign racial stupidity leads directly to malicious racist consequences. Many of the Senators who voted for devastating crack-vs.cocaine sentencing laws were nice people who were racially ignorant and didn’t have a fucking clue. Yet that is no comfort to drug addicts doing 20 years for trying to support their habit (read the details of Willie Mays Aikens case sometime). The lack of popular white commitment to overhaul our racist educational system comes from racial “stupidity”.
And as someone who works in the foster-care system, you know full well that there is great disproportionality of black kids being removed from homes when all the surrounding factors are identical for white kids. And you know full well that many of these decisions are not made from bad or mean people, but from social workers (usually dominated by heterosexual white females) who are collectively (not necessarily individually) culturally incompetent in assessing life altering outcomes for black, brown, or LGBT kids or teens.
Let’s be clear: malicious racism from bad people has never been the problem, just racial ignorance from good people. So that is why we use this space — from various angles — not just to address the easy-to-spot racism, but the underlying psychology that keeps the wheels of racism running smoothly.
D-Wil was clearly addressing Greenberg’s THOUGHT PROCESS that the majority of whites hold about the HOF. (I believe that Golic is in the minority.). That THOUGHT PROCESS — even if born from “stupidity” — when held by white masses has malicious consequences in a variety of ways far beyond baseball. Those who are less “stupid” have a responsibility to educate instead reflexively defending or excusing Greenberg’s biased psychology, Why not address the valid merits of D-Wil’s argument on intellectual grounds?
At the end of the day, D-Wil’s contention about the “victims of racism” receiving 2nd class status is logically sound, and any disagreement should challenge that foundation of that premise.
BTW, I think that you guys are referring to Buck O’NEIL, not Buck Owen or even Buck Leonard the first baseman.
MODI: I don’t work in foster care. I work in preventive services.
and i think that racism is more of a pattern than one statement. perhaps i stated this incorrectly. but it’s not what D-Wil was saying but how he said it. there’s this tone of snarkiness and absolutism that i find annoying. it’s not that he was wrong. it’s that he said it in a way that let you realize no one could possibly be right. I firmly believe that everyone can have a stated position, but can be willing to change if the facts change.
One thing I’ve learned is that, with baseball writers, you have to listen and read between the lines when it comes to race. And that’s because of the GAME of baseball and the “men” who write about it and spew all of this pathos, etc. And then one of them quotes some James Earl Jones line from “Field of Dreams” and we’re supposed to sing Kumbaya? Notice that, in “Field of Dreams” those dreams didn’t include a single fucking black guy. Not one. That’s how the folks that dream of baseball dream: in one color.
@MODI, you beat me to the punch on Buck O’Neill. What a loss to baseball he was. What publicity he got wasn’t enough. Just wasn’t.
The moment someone with some traction and respect in baseball calls for an asterick to the pre-integration records, that’s the moment that black man goes from being part of baseball history to public enemy #1. Whenever the topic comes up the “revisionist history” punks come out and say black folks are “trying to find racism.” My response to any white person who brings me that jive is, maybe your ancestors should’ve fought harder, without prodding, to fix the issues so your generation doesn’t have to. Some white folks are VERY quick to throw out the statistics on black poverty, crime, etc. but they always fail to acknowledge their own racism or their ancestor’s role in the root causes to some of what ails us. Look, some black folks are EFFED UP. And some are being held back. I’m not asking a white guy to “fix” a grown-up black man’s drug addiction, but what about the kids that never had a chance to grow up the right way? What about them?
Okori, if racism is a “pattern” of more than one statement — Greenberg has displayed that pattern many times over which D has documented many times over.
Words have no “tone” — only what is inferred by the reader — which is why I was surprised at your interpretation of “tone”. As for “absolutism”, that seems to be correct, but if there was ever a stance that required absolutism, it is this one. It is the first time in history that reporters are suggesting an “asterisk” be put by an entire “era”. That fact alone puts the entire segregated era into asterisk territory — automatically.
Is there room for a different POV? Yes, this one:
If a reporter says that Barry Bonds deserves an asterisk AND Josh Gibson deserves to be recognized as the all-time home run king, only then I would respect their different point of view. But I’ve yet to hear that one.
I’ll say it (not a reporter tho, just a guy trying to work on finishing something before Tuesday): Barry Bonds deserves an asterisk and I ALWAYS recognized Josh Gibson as the home run king.
The simple fact is that is there is no “special wing” in the Baseball Hall of Fame for Negro Leagers. The plaques of players from the Negro Leagues who have been elected to the Hall of Fame are placed in the exact same place as pre- and post-integration major league players, managers, and executives. Their plaques are arranged by date of induction into the Hall. They are not segregated in any way, shape, or form.
In fact, there are no wings in the Baseball Hall of Fame of any kind, despite the fact that sportswriters talk about them all the time.
Okori, I find it interesting that you feel Bonds deserve and asterisk, but you don’t think Greenberg deserve to be called a racist. IMO, if you benefit from white privilege (Greenberg) and don’t recognize it, then you’re a f***king racist pig.
Anyway, where is this evidence (not hearsay) that you have to suggest that Bonds deserve an asterisk? That’s the kind of comment I would expect from Greenberg. The FBI have been looking up the Bonds butt for 4 years and don’t have enough to bring a case to trial. The league never suspended the brotha for banned substance, so how do you conclude that he deserve to get an asterisk?
BTW, I think the facts will verify that more pitchers have been suspended for banned substance than have everyday players. So if neither the pitcher or the batter have an advantage, then why the asterisk?
Imhotep-You think that any white person who has privilege and doesn’t recognize it is a racist? I would say any white person who has privilege, recognizes it, and doesn’t care is racist. The people who don’t know what is actually happening, whether white, black, etc., can they really be blamed for doing what they are told to do what the elite tell them to do? Can you blame either of the two groups on the bottom (and this is in general, because I am not saying white people as group are below Hispanics, Native Americans, etc., but in the sense of some poor rural white Southerners) fighting for limited resources when the group on the top is the one controlling the supply?
I would like to hear why you think so, however.
Dave, If you have privilege and don’t recognize it then you’re delusional and a racist, because you would have convinced yourself that you and those that look like you have earned their station in life based on merit. They conveniently ignore /deny the legacy of white supremacy inherent in all the opportunities available to a white person.
When you’re oblivious to the legacy of institutional racism and white privilege your logical conclusion is that anyone(s) ( in this case people of color) who is /are “underperforming” is simply not trying hard enough, or hoping for a handout, or just refuse to take advantage of the opportunities available. To harbor any such view is simply racist.
I agree. Wealthy whites manipulate poor southern whites, nothing new there. However, the southern white don’t need to be manipulated into a virulent racist pig, it’s in the DNA.
All due respect to those who can see through the racist veil that cloaks America. I just think that for most poor whites, the ideology they have is the ideology they are told to have. If they work their way out of poverty and learn, maybe through college or some other enlightening experience, of their white privilege and they cannot shed their racist beliefs, then I fully agree with you. Once you know the truth, you have the responsibility of trying to live your life bringing about change. If you deny the truth, you are racist. And I am sure someone like Greenberg learned at least something about it at college, so I’m not gonna defend his ass. But most of those people never know the truth. From their point of view, they make rational choices based off of the choices they are given and the perspectives they are allowed to have, even though from our point of view they are totally irrational. If the basic messages the socializing institutions give to them change, the majority of their ideologies would change. There are always strong minded individuals that can resist the system, but I cannot fault those who can’t because most of them are just a product of their environment.
I see where you are coming from though. I won’t condone any racist actions, but I can understand them in certain situations.
To those who informed us that there is no Negro League wing in the HOF-
First, thank you for doing so. That fact makes what Greenberg said even more despicable….
Okori-
Snarky? There was no snark in this. I’m waaaaay to tired of this for snark. And you would be served to give what MODI said some thought. I would not have had the patience….. And it’s a reflection of where my head is right now more than anything you wrote….
David-
Your statement: The people who don’t know what is actually happening, whether white, black, etc., can they really be blamed for doing what they are told to do what the elite tell them to do?
That is one of the great conundrums of our society…. with the pressure placed on us by the powers that be (PTB), or elite, or socio-cultural prime movers, there is little wonder that people react the way they do….
And with the millions of images with which we are deluged with during our days I really do understand how people can, for instance, do say what Greenberg did and not even realize it was a racist statement. Unfortunately though, it does not excuse him – or anyone like him (and by “like him” I mean the white, liberal-progressive set and the “minorities” who love them).
I think it was Okori who said his statement was stupid but not racist. MODI countered by saying his statement was both…. Well, it is stupid on many levels: that he is a mainstream writer and radio show host and claims there is a special wing for Black baseball players when there is not, is stupid, and; I concur with MODI, his statement saw stupid and racist, philosophically, forensically, ethically, and was incredibly insensitive.
All that said, I do blame the both the individual and the PTB. We have the ability to stretch out and grow if we choose. If we, as individuals, do not, it is ultimately our fault and no one else’s. There is too much information out there to have an excuse that amounts to this:
I relinquish all personal responsibility for my thoughts and acts to the PTB. They control my waking reality and my psychical underpinnings. I consider myself an automaton.
Would any of the billions of people who allow themselves to blow with the winds created by the PTB be willing to make that statement about themselves?
EFF NO!…..
BUT.
By acting within the framework set by the PTB, by settling for merely being a product of their environment rather an ever-evolving being in the act of becoming ever more human and humane, that is exactly what each of these people are saying about themselves.
So, while I too understand the racist statements and acts of someone like Mike Greenberg and many, many other sports news figures and coaches, athletes, owners, and commissioners, I have no pity on them ————— unless they are willing to publicly make the above italicized statement….
David,
just my two cents to piggy-back on D-Wil… because I think your post raises important points.
From my personal perspective I always ask two questions:
1) is the person even TRYING to grow?
2) does the person demonstrate humility in their opinion
There is “ignorance’ and “willful ignorance”. To me, it is one of those “you know it when you perceive it” things. Once there was a NASCAR backlash crowd who responded en masse to one of D-Wil’s articles referenced unkindly on a NASCAR site. Many were hardcore racists of the first order. Many others displayed racism born more out of ignorance. But for me (and perhaps not others) there was a young woman who differentiated herself because she was actually attempting to understand a POV beyond her own.
She was respectful, but perplexed at counter-opinions that she obviously rarely ever heard before. She was trying to break out of the grip of her environment. Don’t get me wrong, she has a long long way to go — but she was really trying to make sense of it all. Unlike other posters, she valued the concept of “fairness’. With her attitude, I suspect 5 to 10 years from now she will surpass others who are currently considered far far more “progressive” than she.
For me, that is a necessary ingredient in distinguishing between types of “racial ignorance” and the patience worth extending to another. That characteristic makes progress possible. At the same time, I understand why others might disagree with me.
IMHOTEP= You’re a fucking CHIMP if you think Bonds didn’t use steroids. BALCO was a steroid factory impersonating a company reselling vitamins. Bonds deserves his asterisk. He deserves to have all his records banned.
Greenberg is Jewish. Never forget that when listening to idiots like that. Expecting him to faily view professional athletes of black or hispanic culture will lead you into such deep waters of idiocy, you will be unable to swim back to shore. The fact of the matter is Greenberg is a media idiot catering to members of his people. Who are his people?
1. Non athletes who never played a sport, thus knowing JACK SHIT about the game he is talking about. It puts dumb asses like Greenberg in a position of power speaking to dolts who look up to him.
2. White people who don’t or can’t relate to minorities. They will view them through the ignorant eyes of a jackass like Greenberg, who obviously isn’t versed on either culture.
3. Jewish folks who listen/support their own.
Once you’re able to see through the muck, you won’t be disturbed too greatly by germs like Greenberg.
nice last comment DWil.
Jimmy
Did you call a black dude a chimp?
Think about that again.
Jimmy, You never disappoint. Your inability to get through your opening sentence without name calling or vulgarity is simply amazing, and more a reflection of your parentage and upbringing. I’m sure a chimp could teach you some civility.
If I’m a chimp then you are obviously chimp’s dudu. For the record I’d much rather be in the company of a primate than the likes of you. At least the chimp have the ability to reason and can learn, you on the other hand is as ignorant today as the day you were born, and you’re proud of that. It’s people like you that reinforce my belief that some white people are just hateful, racist, ignorant pieces of chit!
Dwil,
Shouldn’t the rather important fact that baseball’s HoF doesn’t have a special wing for Negro League players been something you verified before writing this column? Because it’s not just Greenburg you accused of racism, but the HoF itself. And that accusation against the HoF continues to be front and center in your column even after being alerted to YOUR mistake.
Not that I care about giving Greenie the benefit of the doubt, but he may have been talking about the special process used to get the majority of Negro Leaguers into the HOF.
http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070220&content_id=877&vkey=hof_news
My comment about Buck (I will just call him Buck going forward because I am an idiot) had to do with his role in this process. There was some grumbling that he had too much influence on the 17 chosen and leaned towards friends and ex-teammates.
Jimmy,
Your last post was anti-Semitic bullshit.
Is Greenberg racist? Yes, he is. Just like many white non-Jews. His being Jewish is irrelevant. Jews are like any other religion of white folks. There are “racists”, non-racists, and ant-racists. In fact, I would make the intellectual, statistical, and historical argument that Jews have the greatest proportion of ANTI-racists vs. any other white sub-group. But let’s keep it sports related.
– After the black press (Wendell Smith; Sam Lacy, etc.), it was specifically Jewish sports journalists who pushed the hardest for the integration of baseball amongst white journalists.
– In sports journalism, Howard Cosell was outspokenly in support of Muhammad Ali in the ’60s — an extremely unpopular position that produced many death threats to him. He was also on the side of Curt Flood — also an unpopular position at the time (BTW, Marvin Miller was also Jewish).
– For the last decade, Dave Zirin has been the most anti-racist white voice in sports journalism — and he is also Jewish.
– I should also let you know that I am also of Jewish background, and while I am not Jewish religiously, I consider myself Jewish culturally. As far as my own personal commitment and responsibility to fight racism, I can probably point to certain influences instilled in my childhood that were a direct by-product of that Jewish cultural background.
Greenberg is racist because he is racist, and for no other reason.
SoSH U-
That Negro Leaguers are subjected to a separate Hall entry process and separate standing within the Hall is racist…. so yes, the Hall stands accused…. Just as I called it a racist entity when Mark Ecko wanted to sell or give the Hall the ball with his logo on it.
I went to the extent of having phone conversations with people at the Hall to warn them of Ecko’s publicity ploy and how they were being duped. I also implied that to take the ball without proof of guilt is a dangerous act and that to house McGwire’s bat, etc. w/out implicating him as a PED user but doing so with Bonds is racist……
I told columnists from ESPN and a CBS Sports about this and they immediately wrote pieces about it. And what was the Hall’s response?….. We want the ball with the asterisk.
HOF – racist?
Of course.
Negro Leaguers do not have separate standing in the Hall. This is patently false.
As for the entry process, the most recent wave of Negro Leaguers were selected through the same process other 19th century veterans have been inducted, through a special committee well-versed in their accomplishments. How else should they be inducted? Would you prefer Bill Plaschke and Jay Marriotti be in charge of determining whether Cristobal Torriente and Biz Mackey were HoFers?
Greenburg was wrong. You were wrong to repeat his claim unverified, and basically build your argument on it. Now, you’re not just refusing to correct your mistake, you can’t even acknowledge you made one.
That’s kind of sad.
Imhotep,
Regarding “Jimmy,” you’re correct to observe that he is both racist and ignorant; but previously he has identified himself as hispanic, and not white. I’m just telling you before he does (and uses that fact as a basis to deny your allegations)…
SoSH U-
Jeez is it so much of a fucking brain stretch for you that you cannot understand that if you are subjected to a separate process to gain entry into the HOF – or to anything for that matter – that you are separate within the Hall or whatever entity it is???!
Is it really that difficult?
This is not rocket science —– unless you have something to protect and then something as simple as linear logic becomes quantum physics.
Big Man-
Thanks.
Modi:
I think you’d be naked in the street with dirty knees and a sign that says, “Will work for food.”
Dwil,
In fairness, players selected through the veterans committee have to undergo a different process than players selected by the sportswriters. That’s the point I thinks SOSH is making.
There are different committees for umpires, broadcasters, and executives too.
I honestly think you might be confusing the baseball hall of fame process with the football hall of fame – where the small circle of voters discuss everyone, including owners. – or the basketball hall of fame (where I think the process involves games of simon sez).
The Negro Leaguers used to have to go through the Veterans Committee, but – like the sportswriters – the veterans were not experts on Negro Leaguers and a lot of deserving players were left out.
Fact is: There is not a Negro League “wing” and there is not Negro league process that is somehow unfair. It’s actually probably the most fair way to do it, considering there is no reasonable way for modern sportswriters to vote on Negro Leaguers.
My only complaint was that there was some bias on the committee for certain Negro Leaguers over other possibly more deserving Negro Leaguers. I stated that very poorly though. And somehow decided that Buck O’Neil was a country singer.
Just a note. Bill Mazeroski was not selected by the writers, but by the veterans’ committee. And people will debate until the end of time whether he belongs there. But his plaque is in the same room as Babe Ruth’s. And so is Josh Gibson’s
I would advise anyone with even a passing interest in baseball to go to Cooperstown someday. It’s a gorgeous place and the Hall is just wonderful. (I’ve visited the football, baseball, and basketball hall of fames each on more than one occassion. The other two don’t hold a candle to Cooperstown).
I should have done this in one post. Sorry.
Out of curiosity, dwil, how would you have Negro leaguers selected to the HOF?
“Jeez is it so much of a fucking brain stretch for you that you cannot understand that if you are subjected to a separate process to gain entry into the HOF – or to anything for that matter – that you are separate within the Hall or whatever entity it is???!”
I’d say it’s considerably less difficult for me to admit such a thing than it is for you to admit you made a mistake.
On a personal level, I’ve never viewed the Negro Leaguers, or the veteran’s committee selections, or the various other special committee selections, as anything other than Hall of Famers. Their plaques sit side by side in Cooperstown, as they should. And the rather learned baseball fans I deal with on a regular basis (guys who don’t take Mike Greenberg’s words on baseball as something that should go unchecked) treat HoFers the same way.
If you are incapable of viewing all HoFers as equals, ’tis a pity.
MODI:
Please don’t feel the need to respond to that comment. I’d certainly prefer not to have that conversation on this thread — and I agree with the substance of your initial post.
Let’s do this another time in another place.
SOSH = Son of Sam Horn? Just curious.
If so, do NOT argue with one of these dudes about baseball. They have spreadsheets on Dustin Pedroias last 700 at bats that include variables like wind and sun.
SOSH = Son of Sam Horn? Just curious
Well it derives from there, but I’m not actually a SoSHer. It’s my handle from BTF.
SOSH U said
On a personal level, I’ve never viewed the Negro Leaguers, or the veteran’s committee selections, or the various other special committee selections, as anything other than Hall of Famers. Their plaques sit side by side in Cooperstown, as they should. And the rather learned baseball fans I deal with on a regular basis (guys who don’t take Mike Greenberg’s words on baseball as something that should go unchecked) treat HoFers the same way.
If you are incapable of viewing all HoFers as equals, ’tis a pity.
First, I think you’re right. Dwil repeated what Greenberg said and it was wrong. The easy thing would be to admit that and move on.
However, I get Dwil’s larger point about a separate process meaning a separate status in the Hall of Fame. It’s just the lady who is being considered for the Supreme Court. For many, MANY white folks if minorities don’t follow the same process white folks followed then their accomplishments are deemed less impressive. Period. So, because Negro League players have to get into the Hall through a separate door, they are also given separate status in the Hall.
However, I want to get back to your quote. You basically said that because you never practiced racism and your friends aren’t racist, you don’t see why somebody should make a big deal about racism. Then, in a masterful move of blaming the victim, you told Dwil that it’s his fault that he sees racism in how the Hall of Fame handles Negro League players.
Do you see what you did there?
To recap, you said racism isn’t a problem as long as you don’t practice it. You then said people who think racism is a problem, are the ones with the real problem.
That’s classic right there.
T3,
No, it is cool, and your thoughtfulness is appreciated. You are factually correct as I misstated myself. My guess is that the Quakers are the most historically progressive white sub-group in America. So let me restate this more accurately and as I originally intended:
“the proportion of anti-racism emanating from Jews in America is of a higher proportion than that of white non-Jews”.
Given the really low bar, the point is not to suggest that Jews deserve some kind a parade for collective anti-racist efforts. Far from it. What it should do, however, is put to rest the notion that Greenberg’s name should carry any greater indicator of his racism than if his last name were just “Green” — which is exactly how I read Jimmy’s statement.
If I am still factually incorrect, I’d be happy to discuss off-line.
——————————
Cooperstown is a beautiful place (my dad took me there for my birthday in 1980 the year Hank Aaron and Frank Robinson were inducted), but this discussion needs to be settled.
Any institution that will go back and rightfully revise the plaque on Jackie Robinson, but will NOT go back and revise the plaque of Kenesaw Mountain Landis is a racist institution. Yet the Landis plaque still reads:
“His integrity and leadership established baseball in the respect, esteem, and affection of the American people.”
http://sportsonmymind.com/2008/06/28/hall-of-fame-hypocrisy-jackie-robinson-kenesaw-mountain-landis/
——————-
Oh, and Jimmy is Puerto Rican
“However, I want to get back to your quote. You basically said that because you never practiced racism and your friends aren’t racist, you don’t see why somebody should make a big deal about racism. Then, in a masterful move of blaming the victim, you told Dwil that it’s his fault that he sees racism in how the Hall of Fame handles Negro League players.”
That’s not what I said at all. I encourage people making a big deal about racism. And if the Hall of Fame is acting in a racist way in other capacities, than I’ve got no problem with dwil or others pouring it on.
But I disagree that there exists a divide between Hall of Famers. The Hall of Fame makes no such distinctions. Serious baseball fans make no distinctions. In fact, if Dwil wants to offer the idea the great Negro Leaguers have a separate status in the Hall of Fame. I reject that racist claim vigorously and will indeed make a big deal of it.
Big Man,
BIll Mazeroski and Harry Cary got through a separate door to get into the Hall of Fame as he was chosen by the veterans committee, not the writers.
Do you consider him a second-level Hall of Famer?
(I keep going to Maz because I’m a Pirate fan and have played golf at his course. There are other veteran’s committee examples).
SoSH U-
Look, last time. Mike Greenberg made the statement, not me. You are trying to use his words and my reporting of them and what they meant to say: I built an “argument”. It’s not forensics, there is no argument and with you there is no debate.
That he said what he said and then refused to bring up racism again in his conversation with Golic or even address the fallacy of his own thinking is THE point. And that is the point I discussed.
That I took Greenberg, an allegedly avid baseball fan, at his word, makes me feel bad ——— for him.
That you dwell on this instead of his statements tells me that you’d rather not deal with the act – or the thought – of blaming the victim and its implications. And again, YES THE HOF IS RACIST. I explained it once, I won’t do it again. My commentary loses nothing by repeating his mistake,
And this? If you are incapable of viewing all HoFers as equals, ’tis a pity.
I don’t take anyone baseball writers vote into the HOF as equal to anyone else. Nor do I in any other sport. And that is not media voters as a whole, but those who see themselves as false gatekeepers of an ideology that is alleged to be individually subjective but is actually collectively agreed upon.
Myron-
They should have been voted into the Hall five decades ago. Perhaps then, when there were plenty of people alive to have meaningful first-person conversations about those players could actually discuss them and their contribution to the game of baseball.
To discuss Negro League players at all in the last 15 to 20 years is an exercise futility. Think of it: Satchel Paige was not elected into the HOF until 1970 and he was the first player from the Negro Leagues to make it into the Hall (J. Robinson does not count).
And don’t worry about making another comment…. I’m done with your attempt to side-track the issues at hand and want to get something from me that I do not owe you.
Myron, I know the Q was directed at Big Man, but IMHO Bill Mazeroski REALLY, REALLY, REALLY does not belong in the Hall of Fame. We know that he was a superb fielder and we know that he hit that big home run, but what about this:
.299 lifetime average…
for ON-BASE-PERCENTAGE!
That is a joke — especially if you have zero power!
And Albert Belle who averaged and incredible 40 home runs and 130 RBIS for his career 162 game average will never enter the HOF.
D-Wil
Basically, I agree with what you are saying. MODI explained an example where a bunch of people came over here from that NASCAR site, and except for one girl, they all hardened their beliefs rather than expanded them. Those other people, I got nothing wrong with putting the responsibility on them, because they were presented with information from all sides and made their choice. Okay, but let’s just say that one girl never read your site. In fact, she was just a poor girl living in the Deep South with no internet. The racism that is ingrained in her is never challenged by counterarguments or other perspectives. Though she has the potential to possibly understand where the other side is coming from, she never gets that opportunity. Racism is not just the only perspective she has, it is to her the only perspective there is. She has never considered the fact that there may be another point of view, let alone considering the other point of view.
I realize maybe in practice, it would be tough to be shielded from any instances of racism in today’s society. But in theory, as little as that may mean, is that girl a racist?
MODI
Same question, because I agree with you too, but I was saying that you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. After all those NASCAR people came on here, the ones that learned and still didn’t care, yes, they are racist, no doubt. But that one girl, as you said, may end up being far more progressive. Can you assume everyone in that group is racist BEFORE allowing them access to other perspectives? Because that was my initial question, and if you answer yes, then you would say that the girl was a racist. If you do answer yes, is the girl still a racist AFTER she absorbs these other views and seems open-minded?
MODI-
I am usually a shades of grey perspective kind of guy, but not on this particular point you made that there are “racists, non-racists, and anti-racists.” Unless the world you live in is completely post-racial (which probably doesn’t exist in any society that we are arguing about), you are either a racist or an anti-racist. In my opinion, if there is racism, by doing nothing you are not fighting racism, and by not fighting racism you are supporting racism. But maybe I am misinterpreting you, what do you mean by “non-racist” in that case?
“That the separate wing is for those men who were forced to play in a separate league – Negro Leagues – from the majors just to make a living playing the game is an act so egregious that the Baseball Hall of Fame should be boycotted daily.”
These are your words, not Greenberg’s. These words have been shown to you to be factually incorrect. You didn’t just report Greenberg’s ignorance, you perpetuated it. More important, you show no inclination to correct that mistake.
This isn’t the printed page. You should be able to edit your work, or at least add a postscript indicating the “Negro League wing” does not, in fact, exist.
Not everyone reads the comments section, so someone who simply reads your column will come away with information that is incorrect. I would think you’d want to avoid dispensing information that you know to be incorrect. I guess I’m wrong.
And Modi, if you replace Maz with Arky Vaughan, an easily qualified HoFer who nonetheless needed the Vet’s Committee to get him a spot in Cooperstown, then Q’s point is equally clear.
How am I sidetracking the discussion? I don’t even know what the discussion is.
You are mad at the Hall of Fame for the Negro Leauge wing, which doesn’t exist. So, you get mad at the process, which you didn’t know and is explained to you. Then you bitch because Satchel Paige didn’t get in until the 70s – which is a completely legitimate gripe, I may add.
Unless the discussion is about Mike Greenberg (who apparently is Jewish – who knew?). In that case, Greenie is a talk show host. It is his job to spend four hours a day talking about stuff he doesn’t know about it.
David, let me answer your questions from a broader perspective. Despite my language which is often shortened into words like “racist” for convenience purposes, philosophically I view bigotry as a disease rather than an either/or. Someone’s bigotry could resemble AIDs, pneumonia, the common cold, or the sniffles. Everyone will get the occasional hiccup. In short, I don’t believe that it is possible for any white person to grow up in America and not internalize some level of subconscious racist conditioning that emanates from history books, thousands of media images, bad education, etc., etc. All one can do is make a strong commitment to continually finding and eliminating those biases.
Not much time goes by where some subtle form of white privilege becomes more apparent to me. Even my writing style is affected by white privilege. Because I don’t have to personally deal with racism on the day-to-day level, I have a greater reservoir of patience to explain shit instead of telling someone to go “fuck off”. (Which is also why I won’t criticize a black writer or commenter who tells some poster to “fuck off!” before I might)
To your good point, whites are not taught to be “anti-racist”. We are often taught that “not being racist” is enough. This has to be corrected starting with history books. Almost every real white anti-racist historical figure has been written out of our history books, yet folks like Thomas Jefferson and GW still get exalted status. Shit is crazy.
I root for everyone wherever they are on their racially-biased continuum ASSUMING THEY CARE TO MOVE FORWARD — even that young lady. As far as fighting racism, I don’t believe there is one “correct way”. I think that you get in where you fit in, and you take the angle that works to your personal strengths.
As far as “benefit of the doubt”, the more real power you have, the less patience you get. The cost of on the job training is too high. And Greenberg used his up a long time ago. At the same time, professionally I have worked more methodically with say, misguided, misinformed, and racist white teens to help alter their mindset.
Myron
I don’t have an opinion either way on those two guys, mainly because I don’t know who they are. I think the Cary guy was a broadcaster or something in Chicago, but that’s the extent of my knowledge.
I really don’t care about the Baseball Hall of Fame. So I’m not versed in how they make decisions and who is in the hall.
What I am versed in is the rampant hypocrisy that runs through the media which allows sportwriters to establish different standards for different folks. I felt like that was the core of Dwil’s argument. That Greenbery has a history of hypocrisy and his hypocrisy is tinged with racism since he typically seems to have a bigger problem with black athletes.
Greenbery avoided discussing the massive elephant in the room when it comes to baseball’s legacy. The players championed by many sportwriters acheived their greatest feats when the league discriminated against Negro and Hispanic players. The league was not a meritocracy, and this taints all of their accomplishments and any claims that they are the “best ever.”
To caterwaul about the taint of steroids and refuse to discuss the taint of racism is blatant and egregious hypocrisy, and that’s the main point.
Myron
Your last comment reminds me of something Boney does.
The topic of Dwil’s column was the hypocrisy of Mike Greenberg and what it says about the baseball writer establishment as a whole.
You all of have fixated on the separate wing of the Hall of Fame issue, an issue raised by Greenberg in an attempt to justify his hypocrisy, and called Dwil to task for not correcting his column. Personally, I would have just corrected it to shut y’all up, but Dwil is a stubborn cat.
However, I understand his stubborness sometimes and I get his anger. The Hall of Fame wing was a mistake made by Greenberg in an attempt to justify NOT talking about the hypocrisy of his stance on PEDs.
Yet, when confronted by Dwil with that fact Myron, you said that “Unless the discussion is about Mike Greenberg (who apparently is Jewish – who knew?). In that case, Greenie is a talk show host. It is his job to spend four hours a day talking about stuff he doesn’t know about it.”
Basically you’re pretending that what Greenberg does isn’t important because you’re saying it’s not important to you.
This is ridiculous. We all know that the media influences public opinion, we all know that public opinion influences every aspect of American society.
So it’s patently false that Greenberg’s job as a talk show host makes him irrelevant. Does it make Rush Limbaugh irrelevant? Does it make Oprah irrelevant? Of course not and anybody who argues otherwise is either woefully ignorant of how the world works, or is attempting to avoid confronting the enormity of the problem.
Big Man wrote:
“Personally, I would have just corrected it to shut y’all up, but Dwil is a stubborn cat.”
See, I would have corrected it because the idea of not deliberately presenting falsehoods to my readers/potential readers is something I consider important. I guess I’m funny that way.
“I’m just reporting what he said, you can’t blame me if it’s wrong” is one of the cheapest, weakest defenses in modern media. Considering what seems to be a rather healthy disdain for the MSM by the proprietors of this site, I’d have thought dwil and co. would want to rise above that tiresome tactic.
Someone’s going to have to suck it up on this one — and the sooner the better. Figger it out.
If I turn on the radio and an announcer talks about how he just punched his wife in the face before the show, I don’t believe it necessary to spend too much time debating the correct or incorrect details “of what she said to him”
and what Big man said…
Maybe the issue for me is that I draw a bright red line between pundits and reporters. And – to be honest – that fact there is no real line between those two any longer is a problem for me, which is why I don’t really watch ESPN, read SI, or listen to talk radio for anyhting other than “entertainment” at this point. I don’t expect Greenberg to know anything about anything; I just expect him to have opinions. In a way, it’s just like how no one associated with this site apparently has any idea how the Hall of Fame works; yet everyone knows that they hate it.
To me, the issue with the HOF and racism is the fact that it took them nearly two generationsa after Jackie Robinson to even begin addressing the issue. Since that time, I think the Hall of Fame has done as good a job as any institution in trying to reconcile its racist past with the history of the game. I mean, it’s not like any historical institution in America has an easy time with this question – go to the Smithsonian sometime. (For a real treat, visit the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond. Your head might explode).
If you care about the history of baseball (and I do), the numbers are sacrosant. And the numbers from about 1995 to 2007 are absoutely ridiculous. Putting them in context is very very difficult. But that work must be done.
To say that it shouldn’t be done because no one has ever done the same with pre-1946 numbers is both wrong (it’s frequent discussion among seamheads) and lazy.
SoSHu
You also thought that pointing out that “serious baseball fans” don’t make distinctions about who is in the Hall of Fame was a legit point.
First, define “serious baseball fans.” Is that a universally agreed upon definiton, or did you just decide that’s what you wanted to use?
Now tell me if you’ve spoken to all of them since you made a blanket statement about an entire group?
Now verify that they were telling you the truth about their lack of distinctions? Do you know for sure they don’t have these distinctions in their minds?
You don’t know. You’re really just depending on “what people tell you….”
The mainstream media uses that excuse because in many cases it’s true.
Climb down from the high horse and address the crutch of the column, or continue to focus on this Greenberg mistake that was the result of a lie by the person quoted.
Your choice.
SoSH U-
First, I did not deliberately do anything.
Secondly, this “I’m just reporting what he said, you can’t blame me if it’s wrong” is not what I wrote.
Thirdly, I fully explained how the HOF is racist – as explained in the comment about Barry Bonds’ record-breaking baseball v. Mark McGwire memorabilia. I also told you of the article I wrote AFTER I contacted representatives of the HOF and how 2 mainstream columnists wrote commentaries based on the information I wrote.
Based on that, I posited that the HOF should be boycotted daily – and that was a year ago.
Can you name one mainstream outlet, with all their resources, that has been as accurate over the past three years?…. One year? Six months?
Bet not.
An no, they do not print retractions every time they make a mistake, or you’d have to devote an entire newspaper section or, in ESPN’s case, webpage, to those corrections.
Now, I’ll explain to you one more time: that players from the Negro League have had to undergo a separate process to gain entry into the HOF, but people like Jack Buck and Harry Carey, who never played one millisecond of baseball did not, and that these Black men, after Satchel Paige in 1970, had to wait years afterward to be thought of, IS RACIST.
Now, if you waited for three years for me to take Mike Greenberg’s word – a man who professes to be a baseball aficianado and gatekeeper himself and who was a former mainstream writer in Chicago and is now a mainstream daily radio show host – and because I made the unfortunate mistake of taking what he said – a statement that should have been a fact, since ESPN has untold fact-checkers that monitor every program that airs – at face value, you won.
Mr. Markham, you finally caught me.
So Shut Up.
—————————–
And no, mainstream outlets do not reprint retractions each time they make factual errors. If they did they’d have to devote an entire page every Sunday to those mistakes, or, in ESPN’s case, webpage.
Serious baseball fans. Well, clearly dwil’s not one.
The folks at the Hall of Merit are serious baseball fans. They have done extraordinary work studying the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro League baseball. They compare those players, straight up, with both the pre-and post-integration MLBers. They make no distinctions between them in either the HoF or the HoM. True I don’t know what’s in their hearts, but I do know what they’ve put on the screen.
Those who do make any distinction between the viability of Negro Leaguers and MLBers as Hofers are, as far as I’m concerned, ignorant.
Dwil and others want to accuse me of blaming the victim. I’m not. I’m blaming the perpetrators of ignorance. If there’s a distinction between the HoF worthiness of the Negro Leaguers and Major Leaguers of the same time frame, it exists in the minds of the ignorant only. The Hall of Fame makes no distinction between HoFers. Myron addressed pretty comprehensively why their method of entry was different for Negro Leaguers than it is for one group of players (though it’s also the same method as it is for many others), and unless you can propose a better way of the HoF correcting its historical racism problem in regards to the Negro Leagues, I’m not sure what else can be done.
As for the crux of the column, I’ve got no problems with dwil’s general point about Greenberg’s idiocy. There’s really not much to debate on that front, so I’m not sure what you want me to say. Do you want me to manufacture an objection I don’t have.
I continue to take issue with dwil’s unwillingness to correct his mistake. It reflects badly on him and the site. And I don’t think it’s a particularly high horse I’ve climbed up on. It’s not even a pony. It’s just basic accountability.
“Since that time, I think the Hall of Fame has done as good a job as any institution in trying to reconcile its racist past with the history of the game.”
You mean by revising the plaque of Jackie Robinson, but NOT Kenesaw Mountain Landis — the man more responsible than any other for segregation in baseball? So this man’s “integrity” deserves to be praised? C’mon.
Note: Sports HOFs should not be compared to non-sports museums that have no obligation to limit their exhibits only to those that are deserving of the highest praise.
I would argue that if you’ve ever bought a Baseball Prospectus, you are probably a “serious baseball fan.” If you have not, you are probably “a casual baseball fan.” And you probably also believe in clutch hitting. But that’s a debate for another day.
And, dwil, for the third time Harry Cary did have to go through “a special process” to get into the Hall of Fame. He was not voted in by the writers, he went through a special process via the veterans’ committee.
Again, you seem pissed because Bob Ryan and Thomas Boswell are not voting on the merits of Ted Page. Well, they ain’t voting on the merits of Bobby Richardson these days either, because the man stopped playing in 1966.
T3, I don’t figger that we’ll figger it out
I knew you were going to come back with Landis’ plaque. I don’t know what to tell you there, except that Ty Cobb’s plaque does not say “violent, racist asshole” and it probably should.
I don’t think the place to address these issues is necessarily the plaques because a) they are tiny and b) they should really just address why you are there. Landis’ sins and successes should probably be best addressed elsewhere in the Hall.
dwil wrote:
Now, I’ll explain to you one more time: that players from the Negro League have had to undergo a separate process to gain entry into the HOF, but people like Jack Buck and Harry Carey, who never played one millisecond of baseball did not, and that these Black men, after Satchel Paige in 1970, had to wait years afterward to be thought of, IS RACIST.
This is part of the problem dwil. You don’t really know how the Hall of Fame operates.
For starters, Jack Buck and Harry Carey are not in the Hall of Fame. They were given the Ford C. Frick Award for broadcasting, but they are not in the Hall of Fame the way Walter Johnson or Cool Papa Bell are in the Hall of Fame. They were not inducted into the Hall of Fame. They are not members.
Additionally, the process that elected white ballplayers Arky Vaughan and Phil Rizzuto to the Hall of Fame is the same one that was used to elect Josh Gibson and Ray Dandrige. And the process used to elect Joe Gordon was the same one used to elect Cristobal Torriente. There isn’t one process for MLBers and one for Negro Leaguers. There have been many processes employed.
And while it doesn’t really bother me on an individual level, I’m a little surprised you outed me (loosely, since I’m hardly the only chap with the last name of Markham). But considering you do allow for generic pseudonyms, I’m wondering if you do that with all the posters, or just the ones that piss you off?
And Myron-
Baseball is one of those white bastions of bullshittery. White people like to call themselves “seamheads” and pretend the statistics of the game cannot, in their interpretation, be manipulated ————- which is absolute bullshit.
The argument that baseball’s stats in the pre-segregation era cannot be questioned just as the alleged PED era (which actually began the moment amphetamines were introduced to baseball players) is specious.
And you know it.
Now, how can stats be made more accurate, to take the subjectivity of their interpretation out of the equation?
You cannot.
Home run totals are skewed more because of variations in the makeup of baseballs and perceived style of play variations from era to era.
For decades the National League was known as the small ball league; the single, walk, stolen base, sac fly league. Whitey Herzog’s Cardinals played in that tradition – and that was as recently as the mid-80s (by 1990 he was a done cookie) Meantime the AL was known as the single, walk, 3-run homer league (Earl Weaver).
How do you quantify style of play? Without historical study, you can’t.
But do any of these alleged “seamheads” – and I’m gathering you either see yourself as one or know some – ever consider this?
Fuck no.
Have you, or any wanna-be MLB stats gatekeepers ever considered that meteorological conditions effect pitchers and hitters – though differently – equally?
How many people do you know who have ever viewed Greg Maddux’s career in terms of the general weather conditions in which he pitched; that as the season wore on, he pitched better and better.
Why? Simply because the warmer and more humid conditions of late spring and summer allowed him to grip the ball better, thus allowing him to get more bite on his pitches. And that’s more than likely why he appeared to pitch so poorly in the chillier postseason…..
The truncated lesson here is: statistics are subjective just like the people who interpret them. Because they are rarely holistic in their input, they rarely tell any more than a very, very limited tale.
Sacrosanct? My ass.
So Shut Up-
Yes I’ve done this in the past to jerks like you…. because it tends to make you think about the actual anonymity of your position. Se, people like you like to hide behind your monikers so that you can take your racist, passive-aggressive positions in the safety of your computer monitors.
And —————– Thank you for proving my point . I put out that disinformation just to see if you’d bite.
Did you know? Greenberg and ESPN have repeatedly spoken of these three men as being in the HOF and have not told the public of their ACTUAL position in baseball’s lore: Harry Carey, Jack Buck and Peter Gammons………… since Gammons is alive his position in baseball’s lore is readily known – the others, you must fact check the other two.
Myron, no – I don’t believe that Ty Cobb’s plaque should say “violent racist asshole” at all. I don’t believe that this was relevant to his on-field achievements. HOWEVER, a Commissioner is specifically judged on how they well, “commission”. Remember what Happy Chandler said:
“For 24 years Judge Landis wouldn’t let a black man play. I had his records, and I read them, and for 24 years Landis consistently blocked any attempts to put blacks and whites together on a big league field …. Now, see, I had known Josh Gibson and Buck Leonard and Satchel Paige, and, of course, Josh died without having his chance, and I lamented that, because he was one of the greatest players I ever saw … and I thought that was an injustice.”
Personally, I think his ass should be kicked out, but I can see why that might start an undesirable slippery slope. So at minimum his plaque should be corrected and his REAL legacy should stand.
Side note: It is funny how Landis is known for “cleaning up the game” after the 1919 scandal, yet nobody knows how he very likely looked the other way on a 1926 gambling scandal involving Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker
Soshu
Any every discussion of racism there are people who say that if a distinction between Group A and Group B exists solely based on race than that’s the fault of the ignorant. Those people then go on to say that’s not their concern.
But, what does that mean?
I mean, is the fact that Hall of Fame showcases all players in the same Hall proof that it’s not racist? Is the fact that the Hall of Fame makes no distinction between Negro Leagues or Major Leagues proof that it’s not racist? I don’t see it.
Many of the older players admitted to the Hall of Fame, the scions of the MLB, are players who played in a segregated league that was not a meritocracy. The Hall of Fame touts itself as the place where fans can go and marvel at the careers of the best and brightest who played the game.
How do these two facts go together? How can we say these old cats were the best, when it’s obvious they limited competition based solely on skin color? How can we celebrate the history of the game when the Hall of Fame makes every effort to minimize the effects and importance of racism in the history of baseball?
The problem I have with the Hall of Fame is the same problem I have with most institutions that celebrate American history. It’s selective in how it represents history and it purposely minimizes the injustices done to black folks all in the name of celebrating what’s “good” about this country.
Some cats dont’ care about that. It’s just a game, they can’t change the world. I think Dwil is saying he does care and he thinks other people should as well. Whether you agree or not is your business, but it would make for a more interesting discussion to hear you explain why you don’t care then to hear you and Dwil debate whether the error in his column is his fault or Greenberg’s.
But, that’s just my opinion.
Big Man, my lady and I were in New Orleans a few years back and we decided to go on a ‘plantation tour” as we simply assumed that it would be an educational experience of an ugly chapter in American history.
Without getting into it the details, it completely glorified plantation life. We almost threw-up. We questioned the tour guide and complained to management to no avail. It was like we were speaking another language. It was disgusting.
Thank you Soshu for your comment…. (don’t know that I’ve seen you here before)…
Now, I had to take a phone call, but I wanted to get back to “So Shut Up.”….
You come to this site, create, not a moniker, but a call to me to “Shut Up”. Then you try to swing the entire discussion your way, not to point out an error, but to use it to nullify what I feel about the HOF.
That, sir, is another racist’s – and misogynist’s – tactic. Invalidate the feelings of the Other.
You and yours made these extremely malleable rules that you bend and twist and manipulate – and use them to do the same to Others. and they are such so that if and when they are turned on you, you claim innocence, you retreat into the muddied waters of land of “ethics,” when, all the while, you have none, and those ephemeral socio-constructs are but manifestations of you in a rabid moment of lucidity.
Now, since I, a Black man, owns this website and since I, a Black man, understand these rules of the beast that is Western Culture, I will use them as I want —————— just as you and yours would (an by “you” and yours” I mean specifically you while also meaning the general you; and by yours I mean any person of any color who live only by these rules).
Innocence is you feigning your humanity and your ethics are but a cancer on the world.
There are many people here of all ethnicities who have a very basic common understanding and respect…. Even in our angriest moments, we reach out to each other for understanding both personal, intra and interpersonal.
I will not allow this space that I created to be infested by the sickest (not “most sick”) elements of a culture that is blight on all societies and cultures – including its own.
MODI
Yeah, plantation tours are a scrouge of this area. My friend and I always say there is something deeply wrong about the black people who have their weddings at other events at these “plantations” or black people who go on these tours.
Another friend of mine had to go on one for work, and she said she found out that the slave quarters are an “optional” part of the tour. The Big House in all it’s glory is celebrated and you only have to see the ugly slavery stuff if you feel like it.
And that’s why I care about how history is presented. Cause it warps people’s understanding of what really happened.
MODI:
It’s okay. It is what it is. I think all of this is very informative on a number of levels. I, for one, welcome the exchange and its tone. There is a resolution — even if it won’t be an “agreement.”
BM, that is what happened to me. after detailing the most miniscule but glorious details of the house architecture, dinnerwear, and table cloths the tour ended and oh, by the way, visiting the slave quarters were “optional” and “on your own”.
Details, details.
Big Man,
“Myron
Your last comment reminds me of something Boney does.”
Thanks for dropping my name, but please, utilize at least the same respect I do for you and keep my name out of your comments unless you’re responding to me OR an argument that I’m in… since I have your attention, I picked up on another one of your “if I had read the comment with an unbiased brain, I wouldn’t have replied so ignorantly” comments here:
“Jimmy
Did you call a black dude a chimp?
Think about that again.”
I think if you read Jimmy’s comment again (and I don’t agree with it), you’ll understand that he called the man a chimp because of the simple minded argument and not the color of his skin… but then again, you’re always looking for a good fight.
Dwil,
Kindly show me where I said that pre-1947 stats can’t be challenged.
You can’t because I said pre-1947 stats probably should be kept separetely, like deadball era stats.
But I would say that the clear bright line difference between segrgation era stats post-segregation stats is that everyone was facing everyone else on a somewhat even field. If you hit 45 home runs in 1936, you are probably better than someone who hit 15 home runs, because you were playing on the same field.
The problem with the PEDS era is that you have no idea how to determine the difference between 73 home runs and 43 home runs. Who was clean? Who wasn’t?
As far counting in factors like era and ballparks, that’s pretty easy to do.
Same with weather conditions.
Apropos of nothing, do you like baseball? Like…at all? Because that makes this discussion somewhat different if you don’t.
“How do these two facts go together? How can we say these old cats were the best, when it’s obvious they limited competition based solely on skin color? How can we celebrate the history of the game when the Hall of Fame makes every effort to minimize the effects and importance of racism in the history of baseball?”
I think you would have a better argument if you made that point at the recent 50th Reunion of the Harvard Class of 1959.
My point has been that there is not an institution in this country which an age of more than 20 years that probably does not have a deep and ugly history of racism. Christ, we just had a D-Day ceremony honoring the “heroes” – all of whom were segregated and the majority of whom probably liked being segregated at the time.
So, basically, your choices are either completely throw yourself on the pyre and torch your history as meaningless – which seems to be the argument that dwil is drifting towards…ignore the racism completely (which clearly is the wrong choice)…or try to find some kind of balancing act where you acknowledge both the good and the bad in your history in some sort of manner that works.
Boney
I mentioned your name because it applied to you. I feel no need to apologize for what I’ve pointed out to you on many occasions.
Actually, I’ve seen Jimmy makes several race based arguments in the past when discussing boxing, so his comments went beyond simply calling somebody a Chimp because their argumetn was stupid.
Considering the fact that several studies have shown chimps to be very intelligent creatures in their own way, the argument doesn’t make sense on that level either. What was clear was that Jimmy was insulting someone because he disagreed with their point of view and he picked an insult that is loaded with racial meanings when it’s directed at black people.
But, then again, as you might point out, they are just words on a screen. Who cares what other people think, right?
Myron
Do you think that folks are honestly trying to establish a balancing act?
Just looking at the what’s happening, is there a balancing act on just people paying lip service before moving on to more “important” issuess?
I think the fact that the Hal of Fame inducted 17 Negro Leaguers in recent years is pretty remarkable considering that there was not exactly a constituency demanding it. One of the few things Selig has done “right” during his tenure is try to address this long-standing stains on the game, because he seems to recognize that baseball’s most important commodity at this point is its history.
Baseball is inherently conservative, inherently slow to change, and inherently slow to acknowledge its faults. Hell, it can’t even figure out what to do about Joe Jackson. Do you think it’s going to solve the Barry Bonds’ issue any time soon?
Ultimately, when it comes to PEDS, baseball will do what it always does – nail a few scapegoats to a cross, enact reforms years after the crisis has passed, and then move on as if nothing has happened.
Everybody OUT OF THE SANDOX!!
As you were!
Myron:
I’d say that when it comes to Barry Bonds, “baseball” (not the same as the HOF) has already figured out what it wants to do — and has decisively done it.
“Baseball” decided to run him out of the game prior to him having his day in court. “Baseball” decided that the player who had a higher OPS than the MVP in his final season was ‘done.’ “Baseball” decided to move on and act as if he were the only player worthy of banishment. This is classic scapegoating. One takes the fall for the sins of the group.
As for how slow baseball is to change, I find they move rather quickly when the mood suits them. When the issue was expansion and the construction of new ballparks (funded through sweetheart municipal givebacks), baseball moved quickly. New stadiums popped up all over the place.
Baseball is conservative and slow — no question. However, baseball is not a monolith. It is made up of self-interested owners who have grown their business from $1.2b in the early 90′s to a $6b (announced the day that Bonds was indicted). Nearly $5b after people like Peter Gammons and Bob Costas have stopped asking tough questions (did they ever?), “baseball” is laughing all the way to the bank — and it’s best player is on the outside looking in.
I am sure that Kennesaw would be pleased with that bit of obstruction.
Myron-
Oh shit!
I totally misunderstood one of your comments…. I am truly sorry.
But to let you and all the other “seamheads” know – I bought every the Baseball Prospectus since 2002….. and used to force my father to buy the Baseball Abstract as a kid.
About Negro League and the HOF: What was needed decades ago was for the Black sportswriters who covered the Negro Leagues to be sought out to discuss the Negro Leagues with other HOF writers. Then you could have had a meaningful discussion about Negro League players….
Understand that the reality that by the time Paige entered the HOF many of the writers who actually covered the Negro League were already dead. And that the writers who did cover the athletes were never asked to create a second-hand history of the game (second because they didn’t play) and the HOF history is not created by them ————— well, there’s just yet another racist aspect to the Hall.
You must travel to Kansas City to see a fair representation the Negro League.
T3-
Damn, there was never a truer statement made about baseball than the above one.
“One of the few things Selig has done “right” during his tenure is try to address this long-standing stains on the game”
Bullshit. He has done some things SYMBOLICALLY that are meaningless to current day realities. Yes, he is good at having Jackie Robinson tributes, but last year what was need was for a progressive Comminsioner who either explicitly directed or implicitly supported the league-wide collusion against Barry Bonds.
The illegal, unconstitutional, and unconscionable treatment of Bonds is simply the modern day challenge to Bud. And he failed. Fuck Bud Selig’s hollow symbolism. Unlike collusion in the 1980s Bonds can never get justice.
And remember, pre-1947 there was no rule on the books supporting baseball segregation. Like with Bonds many owners said that they were not prejudice and it was based on performance. In other words, segregation in baseball was a form of COLLUSION supported by commissioner Landis (who also claimed “no prejudice” on record). That collusion was also accompanied by a media collusion of support or silence that was Bonds.
I’ll leave the last word to Torri Hunter when Bonds was passing Ruth:
“It’s so obvious what’s going on… …everybody keeps trying to disgrace him. How come nobody even talks about Mark McGwire anymore? …Whenever I go home I hear people say all of the time, ‘Baseball just doesn’t like black people.’ Here’s the greatest hitter in the game, and they’re scrutinizing him like crazy.’ It’s killing me because you know it’s about race.”
I don’t disagree that Negro Leaguers should have been inducted earlier by Negro League reporters. That’s obvious.
I also think that Plessy v. Ferguson should not have been decided the way it was.
But I don’t know where that type of argument gets us now.
and what T3 said… please excuse the redundancy as I had not seen his post as I was searching for that torii hunter quote
MODI,
For a million reasons, I can’t speak rationally about Bonds (I’m a Pirates fan, I think he was a cheater, I think he was an awful human being, etc, etc). Having said that, I think he still probably makes the Hall of Fame under the rationale of “Well, he would have made it without cheating……”
I don’t think McGwire and Sosa get the benefit of that logic.
Myron
You are fooling yourself if you think Bonds makes the Hall of Fame anytime soon.
Well, we’ll see, won’t we?
Out of curiosity, what is the position here on McGwire being blackballed by the HOF?
(And, for that matter, Bonds being blackballed by his wife?)
Big Man, Myron-
More than one baseball writer has said they would never vote for Bonds and they say others feel like them, and then there are the voters who say we’ll see if new info comes out in the next five years, but if everything remains the same about PEDs they are not voting for Bonds.
Where that leaves us with the Bonds vote, I do not know
Myron
I’ve already admitted I’m not a baseball head, but I’ll take a stab.
To me, McGuire’s whole career was built on hitting the long ball. Now, it seems like he may have been juicing for a while. So, I’m really not a big fan of him getting in.
Bonds on the other hand has been crazy nice since forever even without the long ball, so he should be in.
Big Man,
You realize that you just left the door open there though and are actually kind of agreeing with Greenburg.
If you a player is a suspected juicer, you have just said that it may be okay to leave him out of the HOF.
You’ve just made the question: When did he start juicing and what was he like before?
I actually think that is a reasonable argument. I do not think dwil agrees.
One book that could serve to illuminate much of this convo is Robert Peterson’s “Only the Ball was White.” I found it to be a thoroughly illuminating book.
I had also intended to mention that the “Negro Leagues” were not merely made up of US born players — but were in fact, a league of the African Diaspora in the Western Hemisphere with players coming from many countries. Of course, NL teams also played in many countries outside of the US. MLBs exclusion of Africans born in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the DR, Venezuela and other countries only exacerbates the damage done by Landis and his co-conspirators.
There is no question in my mind that if MLB were an authentic product (ie., a merit-based entity) it would have been wholly dominated as early as 1950 by Africans of US and Caribbean birth. To look at this question merely through the domestic lens of US-born talent is to miss the big picture.
IMHOTEP- Once again, lovely of you to zero in on my fucking cursing and forget the fact that my points were ALL valid. Once again, you’re a FUCKING IDIOT if you think Bonds didn’t use the drugs he purchased from BALCO. What the FUCK was he purchasing, then? Was he purchasing designer vitamins, asshole? It’s one thing for you defend a black man, but quite another to defend someone SO GODDAMNED GUILTY you look like a FOOL!
MODI- It might sound anti-Semetic, but it wasn’t. Please don’t tell me Greenberg doesn’t cater to certain types of fans (like white people AND Jews who cater to Jews). That doesn’t throw ALL Jews under the bus, but there is a large portion of Jews who will listen to him for no other reason but being Jewish and they like sports. If I were handling a talk show, I guarantee you I would have a tremendous amount of Puerto Ricans/Latinos following my show simply because I am Hispanic.
LIVEFROMLOVETRON- I’m simply ANTI-MORON. That’s why I hammer IMHOTEP. and a few other idiots on the board.
Ran across this today. I thought this might interest you.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124511558996917441.html
In the entire MLB only 26 players or gms have a college degree. This is an amazing stat.
* JUNE 16, 2009
Who Has the Brainiest Team in Baseball?
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Judging by his résumé, Craig Breslow is the smartest man in baseball, if not the entire world. A lefty reliever for the Athletics, Mr. Breslow graduated from Yale with a degree in molecular biophysics and biochemistry before trying his hand at professional sports.
[Craig Breslow] Getty Images
Craig Breslow
The Education Audit
The Count ranked every ballclub by its education. Players who earned college degrees got twice the points as players who just attended. Starting players were weighted more heavily, as were players who attended elite schools. Managers were also included in the formula.*
HIGHEST GRADES LOWEST GRADES
Oakland (32 pts.) Atlanta (4)
Tampa Bay (31) Texas (12)
Arizona (31) Cincinnati (13)
Boston (31) Florida (14)
Toronto (30) KC/LAA (tie, 15)
* – Includes each player who made at least one appearance through June 1
Here is the complete list with all 30 MLB teams.
Where did those brains get him? He has yet to find a permanent home, playing for five different teams in four seasons. Yet with Mr. Breslow in their bullpen last year, the Twins led the AL Central until the final day of the season. So can smart players actually help propel a team toward success? Is it time for an educational audit?
By scouring 30 team media guides, The Count investigated how many ballplayers went to four-year U.S. colleges or universities, which of them graduated and whether there is, in fact, a correlation between education and victories. Starting players were weighted more heavily in our rankings, as were players who attended elite schools.
Shockingly, while many current major leaguers had college experience, we found only 26 (including managers), who have earned degrees. The brainiest team was the A’s, with three graduates and seven key members of the lineup having university experience.
However, three “All-Brains” division leaders — Oakland, Arizona and Washington — are in last place in real life, while Texas and the Dodgers were last in their divisions in smarts but first in the standings. So much for baseball being a thinking man’s game.
For what it’s worth, though, there’s hope for Mr. Breslow yet. He has a 1.86 ERA since joining those brainy A’s.
—Jason TurbowPrinted in The Wall Street Journal, page D16
Copyright 2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved
Don’t see anything shocking or amazing in that story. Why do professional athletes need a college degree? Baseball players are drafted right out of high school and/or college. Most of them don’t finish college. Once they are drafted, they start earning money. There is NOTHING college can teach you when it comes to being a baseball GM. College baseball is A ball level for the most part. College degrees are a waste of time unless the player wants to go into journalism after his career is over.
Jimmy, Conversation with an imbecile is definitely a step up from talking with you. Why don’t you try to elevate the level of conversation instead of devolving into some nonsensical, vulgar babble. Apparently it’s not in your mental make up to bring nuance or insight to a conversation, but I guess that’s the result of you having to work with that GED. All you have to offer is your boorish and juvenile behavior, you stupid fuck!
Pick up a dictionary you stupid mothafucka and expand your vocabulary. Learn to articulate your argument YOU STUPID BITCH, instead of relying on vulgarity to punctuate your point. There is nothing about you that encourages further conversation, even your semi-literate ass should recognize that people on this board maintain some level of dignity with their conversation. Maybe it’s unfair of me to ask you to bring something (dignity) you do not have. Apparently your only purpose on this board is to be our resident racist pig! A role you are perfectly suited.
Now whether Bonds used steroids or not, would be a complete waste of my time to engage you on that topic, or any other topic for that matter. You are shit, STUPID SHIT, and not worthy of my time.
Keep bringing that hate filled tirade, and I’ll continue to piss all over your stupid face! Drink up now!
That baseball degrees thing was interesting.
There is a certain hypocrisy in the fact that the media complains about athletes skipping school, but doesn’t seem to have a problem if they go to school for four years and never graduate.
If you leave early to earn money, it’s a problem. If endure all four years of indentured servitude, well it doesn’t matter if you actually get the degree we think will change your life.
That’s really telling.
IM-HOMO-TEP- Pull up your thongs and stop crying, bitch. Once again, worry about facts. Stop acting like a woman on the board after getting her period. Since you referenced college, did college make you this fucking stupid? Bonds USED roids and he deserves an asterisk. If you want to try and spin shit because he is African American, then you’re a fucking dumb shit. The dude USED steroids. Fuck you and your dignity. What this board DOESN’T need is another dumb ass making excuses for a CHEATER. I don’t give a flying fuck if the entire league shot up roids, the fact of the matter is BONDS admitted to using the clear. Now, if you want to be the broken condom of the board and believe that a mulitmillionaire professional athlete doesn’t know what he is putting in or on his body, then you’re a dick, plain and simple. There really isn’t much left to talk about.
As far as I’m concerned, we’re all MEN on this board. The crybaby shit should be left at the door. If you are offended by some vulgarity, perhaps you should reach for your balls to see if you still have any left. Maybe your wife, ex-wife, or girlfriend is in possession of them. Ask for them back, because with all the bitching you have graced/disgraced the board with, it’s obvious you need them badly!
Jimmy
Profanity is not a sign of manhood. Neither is using the word “faggot.” I don’t care about how you feel about Bonds, but you do use a lot of profanity and slurs to make your points. Not sure why you think this makes your points any better, or why you think it makes you more manly.
My pops always taught me that any man who spends an inordinate amount of time telling the world how much of “man” he is, probably isn’t much of one.
BIG MAN- Too bad I can’t stick you and your daddy into a time machine and have you raised in the 80′s in the Bronx, which happened to be the worst drug infested era in New York City history. Communication is communication. Anyone who needs to see a certain type of vocabulary to allow for communication is what I consider a bitch. My profanity isn’t anything other than me being me. You want to make more of it, that’s your business. I really don’t care. Anyone who has an issue with that should do what they feel is necessary to help them cope. If whining is one of the ways to resolve emotions, so be it. I wouldn’t lower myself to be concerned with how people decide to communicate. I have more important things to fucking worry about. As long as it’s readable, I will take the time to comprehend the point trying to be made. If it’s good, it’s good. If it’s moronic, I will make an issue to point out it’s stupidity.
Jimmy, Did you go to the HOMO card? what are we, in middle school. Here I’m giving you credit for a GED, shit you never made it that far. You’re the classic example of a big mouth and a small brain. So because I choose to not get in the mud with you, but prefer to watch you wallow in your own filth, then I’m a HOMO? Spoken like a true trailer trash.
I don’t know why you keep trying to bring Bonds into this, like you and I had some conversation about Bonds. Bonds ain’t got nothing to do with this, Mothufuka! This is about you bringing your belligerent ass into a conversation that did not involve you. I did not solicit your crass opinion. If I thought you were intellectually fit, I would have asked for your opinion, but you have demonstrated on many occasion that you’re a stupid fuck and unable to differentiate between fact, conjecture and speculation.
Not surprisingly you tie your manhood in with your willingness to cuss on someone else’s blog. If cussing is a way of reaffirming your manhood, then maybe you’re masking some confusion about your masculinity, but I digress. Your family’s bar for manhood is very fucking low, if you can cuss and name call then you’re a man, is that where the bar is set? Truth of the matter is that you are a BOY stuck in an adult body, with the vocabulary of a boorish ignoramus.
Class is out little jimmy, run along and finish up that bottle of moonshine. Write some inane shit, and brace yourself for the inevitable beat down.
IM-HOMO-TEP- Unfortunately for you your spin cycle downy like moves don’t detract from the idiotic presumption that Bonds doesn’t deserve an asterisk next to his records. Notice you won’t even attempt to defend your moronic statement. Why? Who knows? Here’s some more education for you, you fucking class clown. I’m Puerto Rican. Keep your backwards ass, country boy, African American jabs towards white men in your prejudiced pocket, son. The appropriate disrespectful term for a Puerto Rican like myself is I grew up in a ghetto or pjs. And I wouldn’t drink moonshine. It would be 151 rum or a 40 of OE from back in the day. Being insecure in your skin color is a BAD thing. Munch on that a little, IMHOMOTEP
Tell me again how Bonds doesn’t deserve an asterisk, idiot…LMAO