NBA Finals, Los Angeles vs. Orlando: A Champion Will Be Crowned in Six Games
June 3, 2009 by dwil
The primary characters want “It” for vastly different reasons.
Yet, the primary character want “It” for the same reason.
For Phil Jackson, it is to usurp legendary Boston Celtics head coach Red Auerbach and break their present tie of winning nine NBA championships each.
For Dwight Howard it to be perceived as one of the greatest players of this era.
For Kobe Bryant it is to remove Shaquille O’Neal from the conversation.
For Stan Van Gundy it is vindication and validation.
For all of these men the 2008-2009 NBA Finals are about cementing a legacy.
Should Los Angeles win the Finals it will be Phil Jackson’s 10th NBA tittle won as a head coach. It will also cement the triangle offense as the most potent offensive team strategy in NBA history. Winning with the triangle Jackson learned from and still constantly watched over by Tex Winter, means the Lakers’ coach has had the temerity to ask basketball players to win with an offensive that requires thought to become an instinctive process; because any given night any team member in the offense can be the star, winning with the triangle means basketball players can and will choose to place winning over personal statistics, if provided the correct atmosphere to do so.
Dwight Howard has grown weary of being known as one-trick pony dunking machine with little else to offer the game. He has grown weary of watching Kobe Bryant and LeBron James Muppets prancing across his high-definition television screen during these playoffs as if no other players exist. Howard knows he is a work in progress, of limited offensive capabilities, and just scratching the surface of his defensive potential, yet he has been asked to lead the Orlando Magic when any other young player would be playing limited minutes while spending endless hours nearly alone after pratice working toward the future.
A Lakers championship separates Kobe Bryant from Shaquille O’Neal forever. With a fourth ring and one without O’Neal the retrospectivw of Bryant’s career will surely mention the three rings he won with the dominant big man of this era. however, a fourth ring now means Byant will have accomplished a feat unparalleled in modern NBA history. Bryant will have won a championship without a second player of significance. The Boston Celtics 11 championships in 13 seasons were won with a bevy of Hall of Fame great players on the court at any one time. Los Angeles’ NBA Finals win with Jerry West included wilt Chamberlain. The Red Holtzman-era New York Knicks started five Hall of Famers. Kareem in Milwaukee had Bob Dandridge, and older stars, Oscar Robertson and Bob Boozer. The Golden State Warriors had Rick Barry, Jamaal Wilkes, and Butch Beard. In Washington the Elvin Hayes Bullets had Dandridge and Wes Unseld. The post-Russell Celtics had John Havlichek, Dave Cowens, Jo Jo White, Don Nelson, Charlie Scott, and Paul Silas. Bill Walton had Maurice Lucas and Lionel Hollins. Magic had Kareem, James Worthy, Wilkes and many others. Larry Bird has Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson, and Kevin McHale. Julius had Moses, Maurice Cheeks, Bobby Jones and Andrew Toney. Isiah had bil Laimbeer, Joe Dumars, and Rick Mahorn. Jordan had Pippen. Hakeem had Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie, and a young Sam I Am. The next season he had Clyde Drexler (and it is always easier for a dominant big man to win a chip than for a dominant guard). The Admiral had Tim Duncan, Duncan has Ginobili and Tony Parker. Shaq had Kobe and Horry. Shaq had Dwyane Wade. KG has Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.
Kobe Bryant has —————- Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, an aged Derek Fisher, and a group of young role players who often fail to excel in their roles.
In other words, if Bryant wins he is the team centerpiece and is surrounded by second-tier players at best. Even Dwight Howard has Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis – and had Jameer Nelson.
San Van Gundy is known derisively as “Stan Van Panic.” Though an excellent strategist, he has made dubious in-game bench moves during the playoffs. He has been railed upon by no other than Shaq. Yet, here is his team in the NBA Finals. A win for Van Gundy is a slap in the face to O’Neal and everyone else – including me – who felt Van Gundy was prone to choke down the stretch of close games and validates not only Van Gundy but his brother Jeff, their families and the GMs and owners who have hired the brothers over time.
With so many legacies on the line, which team has the advantage in this series?
Simply the 2008-2009 NBA Championship is the Los Angeles Lakers to lose. Taking a glance up and down the two rosters it is clear that the Lakers have an advantage at every position except center.
And even Howard can be stymied by Andrew Bynum if the officials allow Bynum to play – but don’t count on it. As Howard found himself in foul trouble most of the Magic Series against Cleveland, he will get to watch Bynum head to the bench early and often.
But the matchup nightmares Orlando caused the Cavaliers will be easily solved by Los Angeles. Phil Jackson has the luxury of playing Gasol and Bynum on Howard, giving Phil 12 fouls to play with while Kobe and crew attack Howard in the hope of getting the Magic center to take a seat on the bench for extended stretches.
In their December meeting in Orlando, the Magic started Howard, Nelson, Kewis, Turkoglu, and Keith Bogans. Los Angeles started Bryant, Gasol, Fisher, Bynum, and Luke Walton. The Magic won 106-103. One month later Courtney Lee started instead of Bogans and Vladomir Radmonivic started for Walton. The Magic won this second meeting 109-103.
These games are, unfortunately not representative of the teams today. Bogans and Radmonovic are both gone from their respective teams. However, from the games we can see that the Magic held LA to 41% and 39% shooting in the two contests. In the first meeting Howard took only six shots but attempted 15 free throws, with Bynum incurring most of the fouls against the Orlando center. Bynum was whistled for five fouls in only 11:37 of play. As a comparison, Gasol had only four fouls in 42 minutes. Orlando also out rebounded LA 40-30.
In their second meeting Orlando again pounded the Lakers on the glass, pulling down 54 rebounds to LA’s 40. This game howard had 18 field goal attempts and shot 16 free throws, scoring 25 points. Bynum avoided the foul trouble he had in the first game and played 33:18 while receiving only four fouls. But in this game Fisher shot poorly (3-11) and while Bryant scored 28 points he shot only 38% from the floor (10-16). In both games the Lakers attempted far fewer free throws than did Orlando. In game two the Magic shot 34 free throws the LA’s 27 and in the their first meeting Orlando attempted 39 free throws to LA’s 25.
A disparity like this in the Finals will kill the Lakers.
Jameer Nelson was the primary reason the Magic won both games leading the team in scoring with 27 and 28 points in the two contests. Though Nelson is now out with a badly separated shoulder, the Orlando management is considering placing the point guard on the roster for the Finals. On Tuesday Orlando players said Nelson will be placed on the active roster, though Van Gundy and Orlando management are publicly down-playing the players’ remarks.
Placing him on the roster at this point in the season would be a move that is deleterious to the Magic. Minutes for Rafer Alston, and Anthony Johnson, and sometime Courtney Lee will be modified to the detriment of each player. Nelson is far from being in game shape so his contribution will be limited to short stretches. But if Van Gundy plays Nelson at the end of quarters, he will be stealing minutes from Johnson. Should he enter the game at any other point he will be stealing minutes from Alston and Johnson. And if he starts, Alston will surely feel slighted by Van Gundy playing a half-game ready Nelson in his stead. While a fully healthy Nelson is just the type of Point guard the Lakers do not handle well, the present Nelson is potentially a liability to the team.
Because the injury was to his right shoulder, Nelson has been limited in his ability to practice shooting so he cannot be as accurate a shooter as he was midway through the season. And then there is the question of his shoulder’s ability to take hits during a game. Should Nelson play the Lakers would be wise to make sure Nelson’s shoulder is bumped, tugged, and hit regularly. Even if he is close to 100%, the soreness can’t help the diminutive point guard (Nelson’s shoulder separation was twice as severe as the normal injury of the same type). Also, should Nelson opt for the injection-painkiller route, he is sacrificing his future for the hope of an NBA Championship, which, in his present condition would be, at least, a fine show of hubris.
Orlando will use a combination of Courtney Lee and Mikael Pietrus to attempt to stop Bryant. It will be key for the Lakers superstar to depend on his teammates to take the burden of scoring off his shoulders. But it is imperative for his teammates to step up to the challenge of executing the triangle offense and hitting the open shots.
Ariza, Odom, Walton, and Gasol will all take turns guarding Turkoglu and Lewis. The four Lakers combined will be expected to match the two Orlando forwards’ scoring output. Fisher, Farmar, and sometimes Vujacic – Sasha also is matched up against shooting guards – will shoulder most of the burden of matching up against Alston, Johnson, and Nelson. With Nelson at less than full health, the Lakers triumvirate should outscore the Magic guards. And Bryant will outscore any combination of payers matched against him – and if he does not it will more than likely be because the scoring from his supporting cast is such that he is not forced to score 35 or so points.
Howard and Marcin Gortat will be matched up against Bynum and Gasol. Though Howard has proved to be a difficult guard, if Bynum can use his height and length against Howard and stay away from fouls, he does present a unique challenge for the Magic center. Bynum needs to average somewhere between 10 and 12 points to help Gasol offest the two Magic centers. Should Bynum score in double-digits Los angeles will match the scoring output of Howard anf Gortat. If not, Orlando will have a decided edge here.
The Lakers are deeper overall than is Orlando and have more potential scorers than does the Magic. Orlando can only expect scoring from Howard Turkoglu, Lewis, Pietrus, Alston, and Lee. Meantime Los Angeles expect Bryant, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, Trevor Iriza, Bynum, Walton, Sasha Vujacic, and Jordan Farmar, to provide scoring for the team – and Jackson expects six of them to produce double-digit scoring each night.
A look at John Hollinger’s (of ESPN.com) statistics for the playoffs shows that the two teams are very evenly matched. But with opponents taken into account, Orlando’s most difficult statistical playoff opponent was Cleveland, which ranked number four on Hollinger’s list. Meanwhile the Lakers faced the most proficient team in Denver. LA is number three on Hollinger’s list and Orlando is five.
As for the coaches is Jackson any better a head coach than Van Gundy? Neither would be in the finals if there was a measurable difference. Van Gundy, though, is more willing to go outside the box to find production than is Jackson – as the Lakers leader’s entire offensive system exists outside of the NBA norm.
For all their three-point shooting, Orlando averages fewer points than does LA. for Orlando, games in the mid-90s to low 100s have found their most success. Los Angeles, on the other hand likes to get into the 105-110 range. Though both teams are prone to defensive lapses, Orlando, other than Howard, are a bit slower than are the Lakers. If both teams are engaged defensively, Los Angeles has the advantage.
It is of interest that, in the playoffs, the team that presented the most problems for Orlando was Boston. The Celtics, without Kevin Garnett were forced to become an up-tempo offensive team. fortunately Garnett was injured early enough for Doc Rivers to employ a faster style of play with Rajon Rondo pushing the ball at every turn. It was this fast-paced style that was nearly enough to topple the Magic. And had Boston’s primary scorers Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rondo not been so tired, the Celtics would have taken out the Magic.
Los Angeles will have no problems with wanting to push the ball and get good shots whenever they present themselves. Their style of play will cause the slower Magic more problems than Van Gundy can cover. His team does not have the same depth as does Los Angeles and he does not have as many potential scorers at his disposal. The Magic coach will have to find a way to slow the games down and hope that his key players do not tire as the series wears on.
Jackson, on the other hand, will hope that the Lakers are motivated enough to want to repeat their Game 6 performance at Denver each game in the Finals. If they can do so, LA’s road to hoisting the Larry O’Brien Trophy will be made that much easier.
All told, this is the Lakers series to win or lose. I think they will be consistently engaged in wanting to pursue excellence enough to defeat Orlando. Because the teams will now switch to the television network and travel-friendly 2-3-2 home-away format, games six and seven will be played in Los Angeles.
Expect the Lakers to close out Orlando in Game 6.
With the Lakers victory, Jackson will get his record-setting 10th title and Bryant will get the trophy that separates him, supporting cast-wise, from any other NBA finals winning superstar.
An the two men’s legacies will be forever cemented in NBA lore.
Bring it home, Lake-Show!
Lakers in 7 if Van Gundy give Dwight the ball like in the Cavs series.
Lakers in 4 if Dwight never touches the ball like in the Celts series.
D as far as the comment
“Bryant will have won a championship without a second player of significance. ”
I have to say that Hakeem won without a second player of significance in 1994.
Yes he had Drexler but that was in 1995…….But Thorpe, Horry (at the time he was no way as good as he was in those laker years), maxwell, kenny smith and Cassel on the 1994 team. Were not as good as talented as Odom and not as good as Gasol.
That season in 1994 had more to do with that being a weak year in the NBA.
As far as Kobe and this season the league is completely more watered down then in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.
Thank you expansion.
Anyway its the lakers to lose……………Howard will still make the lakers big men his bi%ch in defeat.
Basically D non of the dudes that Hakeem played with on that 94 team were second tier.
Shoot they might not have even been 3rd tier.
Now on that 1995 team thats something different. Drexler changed the makeup of the team.
O-
I’ll agree with you to a point.
As has been written here (again, my first deep analysis piece was on big men winning chips) It is almost impossible for a guard to be the man on his team and for that team to win a chip. Other than the MJ years (which includes Isiah’s chips), no chip-winning team has been without a dominant big.
Having Hakeem meant the Rockets only needed people willing to feed him the ball to win. They fed him, he scored and drew so much attention that all they had to do, for the most part, is hit open shots.
So what I did is edit the piece to reflect my feelings about bigs and chips.
Good points Origin -
Also, the Golden State Warriors of the 1974-75 season had only one star player (Rick Barry). Portland had Bill Walton, Seattle had Paul Silas. On the first Piston chip team, Zeke was the only star. I agree with you about the 93-94 Rockets team. The Spurs did it w/ Duncan as the catalyst for at least 2 of those titles. Manu was an all-star in 2004-05 and Parker didn’t become a star until the 2006 season. The 2003-04 Pistons team had no stars. Ben Wallace was the centerpiece but Chauncey and Rip weren’t all-stars then.
D-
I don’t know if I would consider Pau Gasol an insignificant player. He’s a 2-time all-star and was on the All-NBA 3rd team this season. If the Lakers don’t have Gasol, they’re a 1st round team at best.
D:
First of all…good stuff. I’ll come back to that later.
Origin:
Let me throw this one out — in 1994, Hakeem may not have exactly played with a dominant #2, but he did play with a number of guys who were used to having the ball in their hands late in the shot clock and late in games. Maxwell at Florida, Cassell at Florida State and Horry at Alabama were all used to being the Last Man Standing in a gun fight. The same could be said of Matt Bullard to a lesser extent of Iowa. However, it should not be forgotten that Houston had a formidable defensive combo at C-F with Olajuwon and Otis Thorpe. Thorpe was an excellent low-profile player who played many games vs. Ewing during his college years. And, of course, Thorpe was a capable scorer (20-10).
I like the Lakers too.
“Bryant will have won a championship without a second player of significance.”
Whoa, that’s a bit ridiculous. C’mon dwil stop fluffing Kobe. The Lakers are a loaded and deep team and were the pre-season favorites to win it all. Pau Gasol is certainly a second player of significance. In fact, you can almost trace the Lakers improvement over the past two years from the day Jerry West gifted him to the Lakers from Memphis.
I have not studied the triangle offense in any way shape or form. It seems to me as though it is impossible to proclaim the dominance of that system (and I’m not sure if you’re arguing its the BEST or simply the Most Beautifullest). The triangle, such as it is, seems to work best when it is deployed by the healthiest team with the best players. When such is not the case, the triangle seems to occupy a seat on the sideline with other offenses. More simply, doesn’t Phil win when he has the best healthy players? Doesn’t he lose when he doesn’t?
I have come around to the opinion that Scottie Pippen may be the single most underrated player of his generation. For me, he’s the living, breathing face of the Triangle. I won’t get into all the particulars, but it seems to me that Pippen’s capacity to deliver grew over time and was the key to the success of the Bulls. Post-Migraine Pippen was an interminable headache for the rest of the league. Simply, I don’t think the system works so well when there is only 1 maestro. You need more than one conductor.
It seems to me that the emergence of a viable #2 could come from any position and Kobe actually has 3 players who fit that bill nicely — Gasol (an accomplished offensive player by any measure); Odom (the softer side of Scottie) and Trevor Ariza (the emerging side of Scottie).
The Most Beautifullest Offense in the World looks great with 4 high-quality options (not including a happy 7 foot kid fresh off the Grotto).
GN:
I think you raise some interesting points. We could quibble about who is a star and who isn’t, but I don’t that matters as much as two other questions: 1) Is a team capable of getting stops late in quarters and late in games? 2) How many guys on a team can get their own shot? Or are reliable scorers in big moments?
The 1974-75 Warriors also had Jamaal Wilkes (er, uh, Keith), and he could get his own shot.
The Pistons had a number of reliable offensive options in addition to Isiah. Vinnie Johnson, Joe Dumars were capable of getting their own shot and Laimbeer and Buddha Edwards were reliable spot up shooters off penetration. They didn’t get their shots blocked and they got their numbers. The Pistons also had Mark Aguirre when the won the first championship — so the cupboard was far from bare.
The 2003-2004 team didn’t have “stars” but it had guys who could score in a phonebooth amid a swarm of bees: Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton. They also had a player who probably would be a star if he was “Shoot First” and played in a different system — Tayshaun Prince. The Pistons were comfortable with any one of those four players shooting as the clock wound down in a possession — first quarter or fourth.
I think reliable scoring offense matters more than “stardom.” I’d argue that the team that gave Mike and the Bulls their best Finals fight was the ’96 Seattle team. They pissed away the series early by relying on Hersey Hawkins to score against Mike, but when they went to the buttered bread of Kemp vs. Rodman and Payton on the box kicking out to wide open Detlef and wide open Sam Perkins, it was on.
To have the Triangle offense work successfully, you need a great player who can handle the ball, good shooters, and a big man that can pass out of the low block. The Triangle is really simple when you look at it, even though it’s difficult to learn because it’s not used much, and it takes patience. It’s more about creating space, than taking advantage of matchups. It does help to have multiple people who can handle the ball. That’s why I’m expecting big minutes for Odom and Ariza.
For the record, watching the Lakers most of this post-season, they either weren’t in the Triangle, or they executed very poorly out of it. The last two games against Denver, they were almost exclusively in the Triangle when they set up an offense.
By the way, give some credit to John McClendon. Even Tex Winter said that he should get credit for it, even though he doesn’t!
kos:
I’m glad you mentioned John McClendon because I was thinking of him with respect to Al Attles and the success of the 1974-75 Warriors. They ran, as I understand it, something that grew out McClendon’s basketball theorizing.
T3,
Al Attles played for NC A&T State University. McClendon coached at NCCU (then called NC College). Attles probably saw plenty of the Triangle in those Aggie-Eagles rivalry games. NCCU’s gym bares McClendon’s name.
I just think McClendon deserves some credit. Every time I hear someone talk about the Triangle, Tex Winter gets all the credit. The reason I respect Tex is that he goes out of his way in interviews to give credit to McClendon and others for development of the Triangle. I think a lot of it has to do with Tex understanding that black coaches don’t get credit for innovations. I remember somebody posting a link to another site, and finding out that McClendon, despite having coached for a long time at a bunch of different places and benig successful, is in the basketball HOF as a contributor and not as a coach. That’s criminal!
Grand-
Do read the article. I list all the primary players the chip teams the chip teams.
he Golden State Warriors had Rick Barry, Jamaal Wilkes, and Butch Beard.… (and he was Jamaal right after college)
Bill Walton had Maurice Lucas and Lionel Hollins.
To add to T3′s Pistons statements:
The 03-04 Pistons had Wallace, Prince, Hamilton Billups, Sheed, Elden Campbell, Corliss. You might attempt to say Rip and Chauncey weren’t All-Stars, but they certainly played like All-Stars that season and came into their own that season.
kos-
do you remember the five-part video lesson I posted with an article explaining the triange? Phil and Tex Winter were miked-up for the vids…. It was fantastic as a thorough set of lesson in how to run the triangle (The videos were removed from You Tube so they don’t exist anymore with the piece in my archives).
More than anything els the triangle takes people who are willing to play multiple roles depending on the game situation. I had a convo w/ a mainstream writer yesterday who said the all the Lakers other than Odom have defined roles… I completely disagree because outside of the bigs pretty much everyone who can handle plays a form of the point, be it point guard or point forward. Notice that LA does not have any real power forward stiffs who can’t do anything except chisel out space on the block because: 1) they must be flexible enough on defense to match up with the Euro-influenced taller players on other teams who wander out and shoot from the perimeter and sometimes drive to the rack. That’s why Phil had Radmonovic and that’s why he keeps LO and Walton and Josh Powell. The guards must be able to play the one or two, which is why he cannot stand small guards like Fisher, who he used to try annually to get rid of when Shaq was there. (plus he wanted taller guards for his pressing defense which he can no longer run because of rules changes making it almost impossible to guard anyone closely).
And the triangle is about creating mismatches, then having players with the talent to take advantage of the mismatches created. Finally, LO and Ariza already play big minutes. Since they are integral to LA’s success there’s no reason to expect Phil to suddenly have them play fewer minutes.
ks-
Can Pau play with Dwight Howard? KG? Sheed? Tim Duncan? Al Jefferson?
Ummmm, no. Do not for a second over-inflate the worth of Gasol. He is fairly talented on offense when he’s playing someone who is not a top player at his position, which makes him a 2nd-tier player. Shit, I watched his little brother outplay his ass! Pau is good enough to look good against 20 teams in the Lig. He is not good enough to look good against the 10 or so with 1st-tier power forwards or centers.
Kobe is good enough to play with anyone at his position on all the teams in the NBA. Pippen was good enough to play with anyone at his position. all the teams either have someone who is as potent as the superstar or have multiple players who can consistently play with the majority of players who play their position.
Kobe has Pau – period.
T3:
I absolutely agree with your points. A player can be a star and not show up in the big game or he could ride the pine for most of the season and make the difference in the series.
I think that any team that has won the title (at least in the last 40 years) have had guys who could get stops late in games and also guys who can get their own shot, whether it was created or assisted. In looking at the two teams left in the Finals, they both have guys who can do both (play defense and reliable scoring).
D-
I read the article but the fact is Jamal wasn’t an all-star his rookie year, even though he won ROY. He didn’t become an all-star until the following season. Butch Beard had no all-star appearances in his career.
Walton had Lucas but he was much like Gasol is to Kobe. Lionel Hollins only had 1 all-star appearance in his career.
Detroit had guys who could play, with only the Wallace twins being previous all-stars, but Chauncey and Rip were not revered like they are now. Most importantly they didn’t have players on the level of a Kobe Bryant or Dwight Howard.
Dwil -
Nope, missed those videos. Wish I’d have caught them. But, I do remember Phil wanting to trade Fisher every year. One reason I think Jerry West would never comply, was that Fish was the one guy that Shaq and Kobe would talk to and respect equally, despite his shortcomings.
“He is not good enough to look good against the 10 or so with 1st-tier power forwards or centers.”
Oh c’mon now, Pau IS a 1st-tier power forward or center. If you’re on the 3rd team all NBA, by definition you are in the top 10 front line players. I’m not overating him. You are underating him to try and further your Kobecentric thesis – “Kobe and the Busters” – view of this Laker team when in reality the team is deep and talented and practically every player has shown that he can provide quality minutes.
I think you’re underating Pau to try and boost Kobe’s leagcy should the Lakers with your “1st tier/2nd tier” device, when the reality is that Kobe has a lot of quality help this year.
kos, ks-
You all are trying to set standards for what you want to use as criteria for who is good and who is not. Now, that’s cool, if you want to begin a discussion of your own outside of what I wrote.
But to use standards I’m not using and then try to criticize what I wrote makes what your saying ———— well, you tell me what it is? “So and so was the ROY but not an All-Star, so and so was never an All-Star; this person is third-team All NBA therefore….” doesn’t mean much to me.
Like I wrote in the comment, if there is only one sidekick, is he as potent at his position or very, very close to as potent at his position as the primary superstar? And, if there are a group of players, are they all at least 2nd-tier players? And I’m doing this within the context of the state of the Lig at the moment of the chips won, i.e. how do the players mentioned stack up against their opposition, not opposition from another time.
Those are my standards and that’s that. Now, if you want to discuss where KB and his supporting cast is within those confines and look at past teams within those confines, great.
But if you want to use your own standards, I’ll watch you discuss all things NBA past and present and where X or Y person fits on whichever championship team.
D-
“You all are trying to set standards for what you want to use as criteria for who is good and who is not.”
With all due respect, aren’t you doing the exact same thing? I’m not saying that Gasol is a HOFer but to say he is insignificant is a bit much. Without him(Gasol), the Lakers don’t finish 65-17 and don’t get out of the 1st rd of the playoffs
“But to use standards I’m not using and then try to criticize what I wrote makes what your saying ———— well, you tell me what it is? “So and so was the ROY but not an All-Star, so and so was never an All-Star; this person is third-team All NBA therefore….” doesn’t mean much to me.”
I can understand that but that’s like saying your opinion is better than my opinion. I could flip it around and make the same statement in regards to what you wrote. Having said that, it basically comes down to one’s opinion and that’s cool….I have no problem with that.
Grand-
Rather than say all-star, first team, blah, blah blah – fucking fan voting, or somebody’s media bullshit, (and I’m cursing those standards because they don’t mean shit – the all-star game is who the fans want to see, not how productive the player is and since the media took over the mvp voting not player on an under 50-win team has won the award, plus the media does the all-nba teams – so their all-team closely follows their mvp thinking), I wanted to take a very pragmatic and much more real approach to who is who.
So, to compare players who play with superstars with their direct opponents – guards against guards, forwards against forwards, etc. – and then keep the players in context with the year they played – not the era, not five years before, not a projection to how they might translate from 1975 when they played to the game in 2005 – I believe is the most accurate way to view the guys who played or play with the transcendent superstars.
I actually was shocked to see, once I explained how I arrived at the conclusions I did, that anyone would use awards voted upon by fans or by the media to construct an argument against the standards I set.
See, I didn’t say Gasol was insignificant, you are saying that. What I’m saying is that Pau Gasol is definitely not a top-tier power forward or center. Second-tier, sure. But, in addition to Dwight Howard, KG, Sheed, Tim Duncan, Al Jefferson, I can add Amare, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Tyson Chandler handles Pau on defense, though Chandler cannot compete w/ Gasol offensively. That’s eight players and eight teams where Gasol has an equal chance of shooting 40% from the floor as he does shooting 50%, which is, at least where he should be if he is a consistent top-tier player at his position.
Remember, the Lakers got Pau because Bynum was injured, not because they coveted him. LA was fine with AB’s rate of improvement and it is actually sad that we have to wait another year and a half – if he stays healthy – to see where Bynum would have been by the end of last season.
Had Bynum stayed healthy nobody in LA or around the country would be thinking or talking about Pau Gasol right now – unless he got traded to another team that was already headed for the playoffs.
That, in itself says as much about Gasol as how he stacks up against players who play his positions.
So, do I think my standards are better than anyone who uses the wants of fans or people who think that a team has to win 50 games for most players to be considered for any honors?
Yes.
Dwil, I don’t see the triangle offense as winning championships. If the triangle is such a formittable offense, why is it only used by one coach in the league? And why do you need an MVP in the line-up for it to work? If the triangle is designed for the open man to get the shot, why is the same guy always open?
Bro, I think you underestimate Gasol. I don’t see Kobe getting to the finals without Gasol. The lakers did not get Gasol only because Bynum was hurt. Fact is Kobe wanted Bynum out in a trade for JKidd. Back then, when Bynum was healthy he was an underachiever. It was Kobe’s frustration with losing that brought about the Gasol trade. He had declared that he would rather play on pluto than with the Lakers, and had actually bad mouthed Bynum in the press.
I’m not saying that Gasol is Shaq, but he sure is hell of a lot better than any of the centers that Mike had in his starting line-up.
Lakers in 6.
Imhotep,
I don’t think Bynum is an underachiever, just that he was hurt. I’m impressed that he is even at this level because I don’t believe he even started ballin’ until highschool. Kobe’s the man, but there is no way in hell I am getting rid of Bynum for J-Kidd. Guess that’s why he is not a GM. The injuries are unfortunate but I believe, barring anymore injuries, he can be a dominant center.
However, I wholeheartedly agree with you on Gasol. He got banged around pretty good last year by the Celts but as with most ass whippin’s it was probably a learning experience. He definitely asserted himself against the Nuggets and to his own team in demanding the ball. The guy is an offensive monster and has a short jumper that might force Howard to come out to defend him. This might lead to easy buckets because he is a damned good passer (as are the rest of the Laker bigs, including Bynum). Lakes in six.
D –
I understand how you came to your conclusions and I am in no way saying the system that you used is flawed. As a matter of fact, I use a similar method. Personally, I don’t hold much stock in fan voting or media biasness. I watch the games/players and come to my own conclusions. But fortunately (or, in some cases, unfortunately) sometimes they (fans/media) do get it right.
Now as I said in an earlier post, i’m not saying Gasol’s an all-time great but he’s no slouch. Do I think he’s a top 10 PF? No, but he is a significant part of what the Lakers do and, again…without him, they wouldn’t be in the Finals.
“Bryant will have won a championship without a second player of significance.”
This is the statement I was responding to in regards to Gasol and insignificance. Maybe I misunderstood you but it sure appears to me from that statement that you’re saying he’s insignificant.
Lakers win if Gasol doesn’t get completely dominated. If the domination is just minimal, and Gasol manages to get his on the other end, then the Lakers matchup too well.
Temple
On that Sonics team, don’t forget that George Karl also refused to put Gary Payton, the best defender in the league, on Jordan the first three games, and Jordan killed. The last three games Payton hounded Jordan into his worst three game stretch in the playoffs ever. And this was arguably when Michael Jordan was at his apex as a player considering the melding of his physical prowess and mental toughness.
My point being that George Karl sucks. That’s always my point.
Also, I gotta side with Dwil on his point about Pau.
I remember what KG did to him last year. Pau is effective against bums, but he has a tendency to shrink up against people who possess similar talent.
He reminds me of a comment Ralph Wiley made about Jermaine O’Neal back in the day when the Pistons and Lakers played in the Finals. Read that column in ESPN’s archives and you’ll see some of what Dwil is describing in Pau.
“Expect the Lakers to close out Orlando in Game 6. ”
Dwil…..Must you too learn the Lakers are up against
“The Perfect Storm?” Inside or outside, the Lakers must choose
which sword they will fall on ,,however they will Fall!
I state the reverse of your prediction. The MAGIC IN 6,
Hell that’s too conservative…THE MAGIC in FIVE.
“And had Boston’s primary scorers Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rondo not been so tired, the Celtics would have taken out the Magic.”
Had Houston the Privledge of Yao & Tmac, the Lakers would be fishing,
in fact Artest led a Hobbled Rocket team to a 7TH Game! The Magic are Healthy
and although Kobe is the Best player on the floor, however, the Next best 4 are all from the Magic.
Peaceman-
I agree about Houston and the Lakes. As long as Aaron Brooks was at the point, LA was going to have problems….. Now, you can also say, if Bynum hadn’t been hurt, by the playoffs the Lakes can’t be touched on the inside with he and Pau and the series looks real different…. But hell, that’s just the way everything fell.
I obviously disagree on the game outcome because of LA’s perimeter size – and really, Hedo on defense? Who is he guarding? Ariza or LO? Not off the dribble. Pau? Not in the post and not on any turn-around Js.
How does Courtney Lee guard KB? Not well, which means Pietrus must play extended minutes – which means that extra ball-handler Van Gun so loves to have on the floor is gone.
So, the Lakes create unique problems for Orlando that no other team does – so we’ll just have to see how it all plays out!
Good points Big man. But I have to disagree that Jordan in 1996 was not Jordan at his apex. That was a shell of what Jordan was.
Jordan at his apex was 1993 Jordan.
Also don’t forget that George Karl doubled and trippled teamed Jordan in first 3 games. He had Payton as a free safety (kind of how the celtics use Rondo).
Once the sonics fell behind he Payton on Jordan….but realize he still doubled and triple teamed Jordan with payton on him. Now realize this was the older Jordan so a large amount of his time was on the post. This is when Karl doubled teamed him. So he couldn’t use the size advantage on Payton.
Take this into account Karl has only doubled two player in the playoffs consistantly. Those players were Jordan and hakeem.
i don’t understand the argument that kobe doesn’t have any players around him but that dwight howard does. especially considering that you argue that the lakers have a more talented roster, top-to-bottom. i would argue that neither team has multiple players of significance. and i kind of don’t think dwight howard is the superstar he’s made out to be.