Foul Shot Friday: How Evil is Joe Dumars?
November 16, 2008 by MCBias
As most of you know by now, Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess were traded from Detroit to Denver in exchange for Allen Iverson. The trade seems to be working out for both teams, as both have winning records since the deal. However, the timing of the deal is suspicious. Did Dumars intentionally rip* off Rip Hamilton?
Dumars is an NBA veteran himself. He knows how important training camp is, so you would think he would stress getting new players in before camp. And Dumars himself promised major changes after the Pistons lost in the Eastern Conference Finals for the third year in a row. So entering the season with no player personnel changes (except for Kwame Brown) seemed to show that Dumars was just talking to send a message to his players.
Then, the season opens, and Rip Hamilton signs a three-year contract extension. (Speaking of interesting coincidences…both Chauncey and Rip were then signed to be Pistons for the exact same period, 2008-2012). It definitely seems like the team will keep its nucleus together…until Billups is traded, just three days later. You might not think Chauncey being traded would affect Rip’s decision, until you read this interview in the Detroit Free Press:
First, Rip’s reaction after the trade:
“Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton were crying. There they were, two NBA All-Stars, in Billups’ room in the Hilton City Center in Charlotte … crying. And laughing. And crying again…’It was the hardest two or three hours that I’ve had in a long, long time in my life,’ Billups said. ‘We just couldn’t believe that it’s over. It’s over. That’s the thing that’s so tough about trades. No matter what happens, it’s over. So those two or three hours were crazy.’ They reminisced, told stories, savored their last hours before Billups’ 4 p.m. flight to another franchise. It was a strange dynamic, and not just because of the crying.”
So clearly Rip and Chauncey were close. But would it have affected Rip signing the extension? Here’s what Chauncey had to say:
“If Rip would have knew that this deal was going on, I just don’t know that he would have signed that extension. It was kind of funny to me that they announced this trade the same day that he signed. I really don’t know. … It just seemed weird to me. He signed that extension three days before the trade. … I think it might have been a little different if all this was exposed early.”
Now, in Dumars’ defense, the article also states that “Pistons president Joe Dumars had told Billups that he had offered Billups and Prince for Denver’s Carmelo Anthony, and that he had turned down a Billups-for-Iverson trade over the summer.” So it seems as if Dumars was keeping Chauncey in the loop. Still, though, I feel like this revelation makes things worse. Dumars could have finished this deal before training camp–it was on the table for a while. The Nuggets clearly have been trying to cut salary all summer long (ask Marcus Camby about that). So why wait so long?
Was it to give Michael Curry a more idyllic training camp, since he was a new coach? Was it because Dumars didn’t want to give up McDyess in the deal? Was it to get Rip to sign so then he would have no leverage to complain about the deal? Is this actually Dumars’ way of giving up on the current Pistons core and admitting that the team won’t be Championship-caliber for another two years?
Joe Dumars has long been known to be one of the classiest NBA players ever. But between the way Rick Carlisle was shown the door for Larry Brown, the way media stories about discontent between Flip and the team tried to stick all the blame on the departed Ben Wallace at first (I suspect Dumars helped steer the story), and now the way faithful vets like Antonio McDyess and Chauncey Billups were shown the door, it makes me wonder. Is Dumars just doing his job? Or is there something, dare I say it, slightly evil about the way Dumars is doing business?
And yes, sorry this didn’t get out Friday, I was busy. Please also read Detroit Bad Boys and Need4Sheed for their takes on this issue.
*Sorry! I can’t resist a pun like that.
MC,
Here is my take. Despite making the worst draft pick this decade (Darko), I believe that Joe Dumars is — hands down, and I mean HANDS DOWN — the best GM in all of basketball. It is simply incredible what he but with nothing but other team’s spare parts. There is almost no precedence for this in the last 25 years. Almost every championship team was built through that special player who was usually a top 3 draft pick in a special year. Dumars did it without any luck.
My gf is a die hard Piston fan and she hated the Chauncey trade, but then again she hated the them letting Ben Walace go. She was wrong then, and she is wrong now. Why? Because Ben and Chauncey were her two favorite players. Fans are loyal to players, but GMs must be loyal to putting forth a winning team.
The Pistons WERE NOT going to win as presently constructed. It is what it is. So he took a shot like the Suns did last year, and we’ll see how it turns out. And more importantly, he freed cap space to make a run at a Carlos Boozer type next year or the big dogs in 2010, and also gives Stuckey a chance. It was absolutely the correct move… as was getting rid of super rigid Rick Carlisle… as was getting rid of Flip Saunders who simply sucked in the playoffs.
The brilliance of Joe Dumars is that there is no one better at cutting his losses. In other words, he removes his own ego from the equation. He correctly fired Carlisle and then Flip Saunders (arguably a year too late), his not resigning Wallace saved the franchise, and he even salvaged his terrible Darko mistake by getting a 1st rounder for him and parlaying that into Rodney Stuckey. Had he waited two years more to “be sure” that Darko sucked, then he would have received nothing. His Grant Hill trade landed Ben Wallace. His Jerry stackhouse trade landed Rip. This was the year after stackhouse had his best career year
DUMARS ALWAYS SELLS HIGH! If NBA players were stocks, Dumars would be a billionaire!
As for Rip, if Chauncey was shopped this summer, then Rip knew that this was a reality. Unless Dumars actually PROMISED Rip otherwise, then I see no problem here. The reason that he didn’t pull the trigger earlier on an Iverson-Chauncy trade is simple — he wanted to see if he could get a better offer. when he couldn’t then he went for it. Could he have possibly delayed the process a couple of days. It is quite possible. But either way, he owes Rip nothing except for his contract and a commitment to put the very best team on the floor.
I know it sounds like it is a tough business… but it is a tough business. I used to love John starks, but the trade for sprewell was well woth it and may have produced a championship had Patrick not gotten hurt.
29 other teams wish that they had Joe Dumars.
Show me player-loyalty in front of team loyalty and I’ll show you Allan Houston getting a 100 million dollar contract from his #1 fan James Dolan…
There is a choice here, but you can’t have your player-loyalty and your championships too.
Which would you really prefer?
All Piston fans must pick one or the other. Period.
Also, while San Antonio’s Buford is a great GM, i am tired of hearing about great GM’s who were blessed with a #1 superstar pick to build around.
Dumars is the ONLY GM to win from scratch. The only other example is 1996 brilliant job of Jerry west to land Shaq as FA and draft Kobe. I will always believe there was a previous under the table deal with Shaq though. As for Miami? I recognize the Dallas Mavericks as champions that year…
Dumars is a great GM. So MODI, maybe you can see what I’m getting at with this. If even Joe Dumars, well-respected NBA star and man, can do things that we’d be FURIOUS if our real-life bosses did…is the NBA (and pro leagues in general) that inherently off-base? That fundamentally flawed? I occasionally sneak big questions in under the guise of little examples, ha (rats, I’m giving away my secrets), and that’s what got me wondering.
f Dumars is a bad guy…then isn’t EVERY GM in the league a bad guy? And if so, what does that mean for sports leagues in general?
*”If Dumars is a bad guy” is how that last sentence should read.
MC,
How is Joe Dumars a bad guy? Much like our bosses, Joe Dumars has to do what is best for the organization when it comes to making personnel decisions.
It was obvious this offseason that Richard Hamilton was going to opt out of his contract (he had a player option at the end of the season), so either way, he was going to be a free agent. Re-upping “Rip” for next year, the year after and having an option for the 3rd isn’t really “security” when you think about it, he secured Rip for the duration of his original contract plus 1 for money that fits what Hamilton brings to the table.
McDyess will/should be back in Detroit in 20+ days from now.
You can look to the coaching changes and think that Dumars is a bad guy, but you have to also look at the coaches themselves:
Rick Carlisle – couldn’t make adjustments in the playoffs, as evidenced by his playoff runs with other teams.
Larry Brown – became infatuated with coaching the Knicks (no offense MODI, but I’ll never understand this). He had the respect of the players, as he usually does.
Flip Saunders – couldn’t make adjustments in the playoffs, as evidenced by him taking a 64, 52, and 59 win team to the Conference Finals and not being able to sniff the Finals.
I am not happy with the trade of Billups, but I am satisfied that Dumars is doing what he said he was going to do. In the era of “big names” like Kobe and LeBron not being able to win without support, and with the Celtics winning with a “Big 3″ it’s nice to see Detroit have their own big 3 with Tay, Sheed and AI.
MODI,
The Lakers didn’t draft Kobe, btw. They traded Vlade Divac for him.
Maybe you’re right, Boney–maybe it’s just part of the job. But it’s hard not to see some sort of trickery in this decision by Dumars. I’m reading an interesting book now called “Gangs of America” on how corporations manipulate the political process. But it’s an interesting book, because it also realizes that “Well, maybe corporations should have that right, they are after all just doing what they need to do to survive, right?” It’s just a debate worth having on here, I think.
By the way, all, I finally have some time this week, and I’m excited about giving SOMM some of it. So many topics, so little time!
I stick by my guns in this argument:
Joe D and the rest of us Pistons fans knew Rip was going to opt out at the end of the year.
So is it right for Rip to opt out and leave, or is it right to sign the guy to an extension?
If you remember at the end of the year after the whole “there are no sacred cows” speech, Joe D met with Tayshaun and Richard Hamilton to discuss the meaning of that press conference. It’s obvious that those 2 were likely told “you guys are my centerpieces, you’re the youngest of the starters, I’m going to build around you”.
I believe that Joe tried to flip Chaunce and Tay for Melo, I would’ve made that move with my eyes closed. I also believe that Chauncey is the one that had to go, of all of them. If you remember, Chauncey is the only one of the starters who continually failed to show up when it mattered after the 05 Finals run.
I will always respect Chauncey for signing in Detroit for the MLE several years ago. Detroit had been basically nothing, and he took a chance on Detroit and Detroit took a chance on him. I will respect Chauncey for playing out his MLE contract, even though during that contact he became, what I believe, a top 5 PG in the league. He earned his new contract, and knowing Joe D he felt last offseason that Stuckey would not have progressed in 1 season as much as Stuckey did.
When Stuckey showed the promise he did in the short period of time, Joe D could play with house money and move either Hamilton or Billups to use their strength (depth) to fill other needs. With this move, they make themselves more cap friendly going into this offseason when Dyess likely retires or goes to another team and Boozer can sign in Detroit while Sheed takes over the role of Dyess (if Sheed re-signs of course), etc…
co-sign Boney. (And thank for the correction on Kobe)
MC, the only way that Dumars did anything wrong is if he looked Rip in the eye and lied to him. Every organization or business has to make tough decisions.
One time I had to fire a colleague who I had a close friendship with. But my loyalty was the organization and specifically, the youth that we were serving. Business never personal. At least Dumars sent Chauncey back home to a quality cast. As long as you are straight and upfront with people, people will ultimately respect you — even during tough decisions.
BTW, the reason the Pistons fired LB was because LB wasn’t straight and upfront with the Pistons — a common occurence in LB’s career.
Great points Mc.
But I have to agree with Modi and Boney.
Dumars is the best GM out there. And Modi even Dallas had a superstar in Dirk.
Another thing Modi you are so right in that the shaq deal with the lakers was under the table. Even the Magic said it was fishy. But remember the lakers were never called out by the league for tampering, but they did call out the heat for tampering with Juwan Howrad that same year. Howard would then go back to washington.
That was just the NBA protecting the NBA and giving the lakers the usual wink wink its all good.
MODI, wasn’t Kwame drafted this decade?
Nobody can top that.
HAHA Big man.
Its a tie.
Kwame is 1A and Darko is 1B.
But the thing is that superstars were drafted before and after Darko.
As far as I know the Kwame draft was week.
But isn’t Kwame with the Pistons now? So isn’t it a wash?
Dee
But, Dumars got him for cheap and he’s playing well for the Pistons.
Actually, Darko was probably a worse pick than Kwame. that was a huge eff up.
Darko is much worse for the simple fact of the three guys picked directly after him were Melo, Bosh, Wade!
Sam Bowie is only relevant because of who came next…
Kwame was picked in one of those Michael Olowakandi-Purvis Ellison-type years
Kwame gets a pass in my book
MODI
You’re absolutely correct with respect to Darko. I have to say that those are very sound analytic principles you’re applying here. The pick is all about who is available in the CURRENT year. If every single player in the draft is subpar, that probably reflects a larger systemic issue — like a rule change or some other shift that has nothing to do with the acumen of general managers. Break that shit down son!!
Ditto to Origin — didn’t see yours there as well.
I’m gonna side with MODI and the others on this one.
The trade was actually a great trade for both teams. The Pistons didn’t have that breakdown offensive player to get out of the East and now they do so they have a chance. The Nuggets needed some disciplien and defense on the perimeter and now they have that. Chauncey got more money than any of us can ever imagine having and he gets to leave the hellhole that Detroit is becomming and go home to Denver.
And I also agree that Darko was Much worse than Kwame. I mean, wasn’t Detroit could have had Carmelo, Bosh or D-Wade instead of Darko!
Yeah, i gotta go w/ MODI on this one. Great trade for both teams…..and Joe D is the top GM in the NBA – it’s not even close.
Hey, the NBA is a business……it’s a sport when played on the playground.
A bad guy? This is business. If it helps his team, then he made the right move.
It’s funny how people get all upset over an NBA trade involving multimillionaire players… but when Citigroup lays off 24,000 people, no one really cares.