Is HBO Boxing, Larry Merchant, Racially Biased?
July 7, 2008
Floyd Mayweather Jr. – who recently retired from boxing — is not controlled by any team league commissioners, corporate endorsements, or television network executives. He has also made “great investments”, says that he “should be a billionaire” by the end of the year, and could care less what you think of him. In other words, Floyd just may be the only African-American athlete in America who can speak freely without major consequence. On July 4, he accused HBO of racially-biased coverage against himself and other black fighters in general. He says:
“I’ve noticed it for a long time but I couldn’t say anything because I had to do business with them. [HBO] I’ll still do business with them, but I’m done holding my tongue. I think HBO is great. But their announcers are full of shit… I’m happy. I feel clear. I feel free as a bird”… “I feel good that I can finally speak out, and say the things I want to say.”
And frankly, it also feels good that an athlete can actually speak out against the media without monetary backlash. But rather than have typical “knee-jerk reactions” to Floyd’s claims or “shoot the messenger” that is so common on message boards, we will try to fairly analyze if HBO is biased against Floyd specifically and black fighters in general. And yes, that includes Larry Merchant?
1. Does HBO Treat Floyd Unfairly?
Floyd says: “Jim Lampley, Larry Merchant, Emanuel Steward, they’re always talking about the negative things in my life … But I’ve seen Jim Lampley in the same strip club as me before. They always want to talk about me going to strip clubs, but they don’t want to talk about that… He {Lampley] caught a court case himself, too [1]. But when they catch a case, all they do is take them off the air a couple weeks, then it’s over.”
Without context this might seem like a just a swipe at Lampley, who received three years’ probation for violating a restraining order brought by a live-in girlfriend who accused him of domestic abuse. However, it was more of a criticism of HBO’s network executives treatment of Lampley vs. their treatment of him in behind-the-scenes dealings. mlive.com reports:
“Mayweather was charged in conjunction with the 2003 incident at The Radio Tavern… Mayweather denied the charge, but negotiations for his first pay-per-view main event, against Arturo Gatti, stalled when Gatti’s promoter, Main Events, insisted Mayweather resolve the case first. Mayweather… now says HBO sided with Main Events in pushing him to cop a plea… Mayweather said. ‘I know I didn’t do anything wrong. But they said they couldn’t make the fight if I didn’t resolve that case. So I had to plead no contest to something I didn’t do.’”
If Mayweather’s account is true (HBO did not comment on this), this context would really help explain why he feels the need to stop ”biting his tongue”. We should also mention that the “narratives” for both the HBO 24/7 pre-fight series with first Oscar de La Hoya and then Ricky Hatton clearly portrayed Mayweather as the absolute villain, and couldn’t get enough of his dysfunctional family. Of course, Floyd was quite complicit in playing up the “bad guy” role, however, Floyd had also wondered on occasion why in the first 24/7 series, HBO never showed his family side such as taking out his kids to Chuck E. Cheese.
Beyond HBO executives, if there is any specific announcer who has not treated Mayweather fairly, it is Larry Merchant. The contentious relationship between Mayweather and Merchant was best exemplified in the following youtube video after Mayweather shut out Carlos Baldomir. Now I must disclose that I watched this Pay Per View fight in a billiards hall and by the time Floyd said: “Larry Merchant is just a commentator and knows nothing about boxing”, just about every single one of the couple hundred of fight fans were on their feet clapping. The following week the fight was shown on HBO, but the the post fight interview was deleted from the telecast.
2. Is HBO Biased Against Black Fighters?
Floyd on HBO Racial Bias: “A guy like Jim Lampley, he praises Kelly Pavlik — who has won some good fights, he beat Jermain Taylor twice, we have to give him credit for that — but they talk about Kelly Pavlik, a white fighter, like he’s the second coming Or they go crazy over Manny Pacquiao. But I’m a black fighter,” …”Is it racial? Absolutely. They praise white fighters, they praise Hispanic fighters, whatever. But black fighters, they never praise.”
If it appears to Floyd or anyone else believes that HBO announcers have a bias against black fighters, it is easy to understand why. It is because they often do! The only question is why. Sometimes it is hard to tell just how much may be racial bias and how much is HBO’s clear bias toward “brawlers”. Yes, HBO announcers love to gush poetic over Kelly Pavlik, the magnificent Manny Pacquiao, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, and ruminate about the “Gatti-Ward” for the 8967th time.
Sure the trilogy of these two B and C level white fighters was spectacular, but when they show the replay of the telecast in “black and white” to market it as a “throwback” fight, it is fair to wonder why no “black-black”, “black-brown”, or even “brown-brown” ever received such treatment (if I am wrong, please correct me). With the exception of Max Kellerman, HBO favors the “gladiator” types over the more tactical fighters. This is most evident by the perpetually curmudgeonly and negative Larry Merchant. You get the sense that Merchant – always seemingly disappointed when Gatti-Ward IV doesn’t break out — would open by asking Sugar Ray Robinson after the 1951 St. Valentine’s Day Massacre, “so why couldn’t you knock Lamotta out Ray?”.
In Larry Merchant and Why He Has to Go, StopMikeLupica says that Larry will: “verbally bully anyone who disagrees with his take”. In addition to Mayweather, that is exactly what he tried to do with Hopkins after he easily beat the overmatched, but mandatory challenger Morrade Hakkar. Merchant’s opened the post-fight by asking Hopkins “aren’t you embarrassed that you had to fight this guy?” In this Eastside Boxing interview, Hopkins says:
“How am I going to be embarrassed? He was a mandatory, I didn’t put the guy there, the ranking system did. …Larry Merchant is part of the good old boy network and he was trying to make me look bad on TV and I knocked him out by saying ‘Larry stop being ignorant!’ They were trying to make me look bad… The whole build up for that fight was to show that Bernard Hopkins is a dirty, rotten, motherf&%$#r and then Larry gets me on TV and tries to fool the public into thinking that I picked a guy like Hakkar to fight…”
This was not Merchant’s only confrontation with Hopkins, and he was also known to give Roy Jones a hard time no matter how dominant a performance. StopMikeLupica also points out many irritating exchanges where fellow commentators Jones and George Foreman had to often remind Merchant that he never actually fought a fight (video: Roy checks Larry).
Coincidentally or not, the three greatest pound-for pound American fighters of our generation have been Roy Jones Jr., Bernard Hopkins, and Floyd Mayweather Jr. All are more scientific technicians who systematically break opponents, prefer to counter-punch, and hit without getting hit back. All are also black. And Merchant has treated all like crap in interviews relative to their incredible skill level. Off the top of my head, I can also remember Merchant cutting off Buster Douglass talking/crying about his recently-passed mother; repeatedly scathing commentary on Mike Tyson; cutting off Vernon Forrest while thanking his family after upsetting Shane Mosely; ripping to shreds Chris Byrd’s defensive style; and being a rude, arrogant, and disrespectful to fighters in general. Having spoken with many fight fans over the years, the perception of Larry Merchant as racially-biased is nothing new. Whether fighting styles, race, or a mixture both are factors — HBO should have fired him long ago.
The Klitchko Test: In defense of Merchant against the racial bias claim, off the top of my head, he seems to have had high praise for African-American “brawling types” like Evander Holyfield, Jermain Taylor, and even Edison Miranda. If this is true, it still does not eradicate the racial bias claim given the depth of disrespect he has shown some of the premier black fighters in interviews. There would have to be such a similar disrespectful and disdainful commentary to tactical white fighters. The immediate guy that comes to mind is Wladimir Klitchko who may be the most technically cautious heavyweight ever. And given his 250 muscular frame, his unwillingness to ever rush his opponent beyond his jab could be maddening. StopMikeLupica references Merchant referring to to Vlad’s “beautiful style”. And since my memory of Merchant calling Klitchko fights is escaping me, if others can find similar disrespectful commentary on Klitchko, then please add to this discussion. Until then here are the verdicts:
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Verdict #1:HBO has treated Floyd Mayweather unfairly.
Verdict #2: HBO should have fired Larry Merchant long ago just on general rudeness.
Verdict #3: Larry Merchant is probably also racially-biased against black “technical” fighters, but this needs to be explored further through “the Klitchko test”.
Verdict #4:There is not sufficient public info on the other HBO announcers to substantiate the racial bias claim, but it is clear that Max Kellerman is the only objective announcer who is not plagued with the “gladiator bias”.
Verdict #5: Floyd gets the last word: “There aren’t any fighters commentating on boxing, that’s the problem… They need to go to gyms, really learn what they’re talking about.” (Amen, and may we suggest bringing back Kevin Kelley)
Related: Tainted Legacy: Floyd Mayweather Junior Quits Boxing
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40 Responses to “Is HBO Boxing, Larry Merchant, Racially Biased?”
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Modi… Verdict #1 goes on the assumption that what Mayweather said was true. If it wasn’t, and there is at least a reasonable chance that it wasn’t, then that means that Floyd is tilting at windmills.
2: Larry Merchant is a goon. Even I can’t defend that one.
And finally, Floyd HBO stood by you for the entirety of your career. When you were calling their contract slave wages they said nothing and took it. THey were loyal to you to a degree that few networks had been since Showtime with Chavez. You were THE hbo fighter of this era. And now that you’re retired you blast them? Good work. But if you come back I want you on Showtime. Don’t go back to HBO if you think they mistreated you.
I agree with Winky that boxing is an art form. It is not suppose to be subject to who commentators like the most; it’s all about who whooped whose azz with a minimum amount of effort and maxium amount of style and class.
I also agree with Floyd…I am a huge fan and hearing the commentators doubt his abilities “as he was fighting” really took away from my experience as a fan who was suppose to be enjoying the proud accomplishments of my victorious gladiator.
Larry Merchant and Jim Lampley especially don’t even seem to know the name and/or style of the punches that are thrown during a fight. For Example: during the final round of the Mayweather vs Hatton fight you clearly hear Emanuel Steward say “Floyd just hit him with the check hook” and in the post fight interview Floyd confirmed “I hit him with the check hook.” None of the other commentators even knew what the flip happened. They were just sat there with their stick in their hands.
Good job Modi. I would comment more, but I don’t really follow boxing.
Great boxing post. I don’t know if I have talked about this before with you, but I have been on Merchant forever now. He knows nothing about boxing and seems only concerned about trying to get that perfect “profound” quote at the expense of what is happening. As you said, he only favors brawling and has no appreciation for the finer aspects of the game. Thats one thing I miss about Foreman. Although he was a terrible color commentator (except when it came to heavyweights) he never let Larry intimidate him. George was still enough of a bully underneath all the smiling and mugging to shut Larry up from time to time. Most boxing fans I know think Merchant is drunk whenever he comes on the air and that any rational comment he makes is an accident. I will say that black fighters get the brunt of his assholeness but than again, some of the more successful fighter of the past decade have been black technicians. And he does not appreciate the techical aspect of boxing.
For my money, Roy Jones was the best color commentator they ever had. Talk about knowing the game! There was a couple of times where he would predict the outcome of a fight after a tight first round and be right. His knowledge of what was happening in the fight was so great that Larry often had nothing to say and when he did say something, Roy would usually correct him. It always seemed to me that Jim Lampley always got a kick out of that.
As far as the fighters they push, I think it may be more promotional than racial. I remember them pushing Michael Grant and more recently Jermaine Taylor but at the end of the day, when they get an American white fighter who is decent (a rarity) they will hype them because its a money game. I can honestly say I don’t think European white fighters get as much hype in the States. I get the impression that they announcing crew is not very enamored of Klitchko for instance.
In boxing out-spoken black fighters always get criticized. And technicians always get criticized. So, if you have an out-spoken black technician, you are really really going to get criticized.
I don’t even know what Merchant does at this point, and I barely understood why he was on HBO in the first place. I just kind of view him as my drunk “uncle” who shows up at Christmas every year, even though I’m not quite sure how he is related to us.
I do miss his arguments with Foreman though. That was an insane booth. Foreman would be watching a body shot in the 11th round and say, “That punch is really going to hurt him later in the fight.” And Merchant slur a reminder of what round it was and mention how Ali beat him. And then awkward silence. Those were fun days.
As for HBO as a whole, I think it deserves a ton of credit for all the promotion and support it offers Latin fighters. Another network might have seen the rise of all these Spanish-speaking boxers and bailed out on the sport all together. HBO has embraced these fighters and their fans.
Latinos make up 13 percent of the U.S. population and have less cultural baggage with most Americans than black people. It makes sense for a corporation to embrace them.
Okori, I don’t think that HBO did Floyd any favors at all. Had Diego Corrales dropped Floyd way back, HBO would have dropped Floyd like a hot potato.
awb, i also used to love Foreman and RJJ putting larry back in his place. George, Roy, or Kevin Kelley wer all much better than lennox Lewis — who surprisingly has very little to add insight wise. As far as “more promotional than racial” the problem is that “promotional” often contains “racial” as a subset. I believe that this played a part in the 24/7 narratives.
Myron, I think that HBO’s embrace of Latin fighters is a business decision because latin audiences are the most loyal to boxing. not only do you get a heavy international market, but if Tito is fighting Hopkins at MSG almost nobody is rooting for Hopkins as the Garden becomes a mini-PR.
Also, I have no reason to believe that HBO is any more feavorable to latin fighters than Showtime. Corrales-Castillo epic? Marquez-Vazquez trilogy? Casamayor? Freitas? These fighters and many others fought on Showtime and were praised bigtime. But in addition, the Showtime announcers respect ALL types and styles of boxers in my opinion (okay, I have some problems with Jim Gray at the post-fight), and have fairer telecasts. HBO is king because they are routinely able to sign the big stars to larger contracts than Showtime. And even if Merchant were fair, someone like Al Bernstein is 100 times more knowledgeable than him.
Jim Grey shows a lot more respect to fighters than Merchant does in my opinion although even he was verbally smacked down by Kosty Tszyu of all people. As far as Lennox Lewis, he’s not as bad as I thought he would be but there is never any kind of “wow, that’s interesting. I didn’t know that!” gem that even Foreman and the Steward would dispense time to time.
I agree about the 24/7 promotion. I know that Mayweather likes to cast himself as the “villain” in a boxing promotion, but the “differences” between he and Hatton were played up so much that it was not hard to see the racial aspect of it. I watched it a couple of times and there seemed to be scene after scene of the plugger Hatton working dililgently while Floyd was shown jumping rope a few times and playing to his camp. A bit much really. And misleading. I have yet to see Mayweather get into trouble in a fight due to lax training. I have never seen him get caught slipping like that.
This is really a pathetic piece. First of all, Hopkins, Jones Jr and Gayfeather all share the same history. They failed to fight the best of their weight class. Hopkins got his fame beating Tito, who was a blown up welterweight. Jones Jr. was overrated and Gayfeather…well….we really don’t need to get into that SCAM ARTIST.
Fans are NOT attracted to runners inside the ring. Fans are NOT attracted to guys who don’t show their chins. You got around the world and you won’t see that style of fighting applauded. This is the Muhammed Ali syndrome. Ali turned boxing into a showman’s sport, but unfortunately, too many fighters try to market themselves like mini-Ali’s and the sport suffers. Winky Wright shouldn’t talk. His is the ONLY man that can actually make a Felix Trinidad fight boring. Nuff said.
Hopkins fought garbage for most of his career. He takes the blame for being the scumbag he was outside the ring.
There is NO racism out here. People pay to see FIGHTS, not sparring exhibitions. Fighting is an art. The art of hurting the opponent. Wright, Gayfeather, Jones Jr and Hopkins didn’t fight in this fashion for different reasons. Most of the time, these fools ducked the best fighters to fight set up opponents. That’s why Merchant was a prick with Hopkins and Jones Jr. and Gayfeather. There isn’t anything racist about that.
Gayfeather is simply upset that HBO wouldn’t fund a MORONIC 2nd fight between Oscar and himself. They knew that fight would suck dick, so the plug was pulled before anyone was embarrassed. Gayfeather has run out of cupcakes to fight. He either fights Cotto and gets fucked up or he shuts his fucking mouth and stays retired.
I get what Floyd was getting at with his comments but he’s just as guilty as HBO in how his image was presented on that network. He played the bad guy willingly to hype his fights up and to get a larger payday and now that he’s retired he’s coming out with his comments. From what I see, read, and hear most sports coverage in this country is north of 80% racially biased in some way and it is not unintentional because the media potentates want it that way. Josh Hamilton and Rick Ankiel are inspiring stories about the merits of perserverance through adversity but Milton Bradley is a paranoid nutcase while Lastings Milledge is a hot dog. Steve Young made a smart play by pulling the ball down and running it but Randall Cunningham didn’t give the play time enough to develop. Tyler Hansborough plays college ball the way it’s supposed to be played but OJ Mayo was a mercernary who used USC for exposure to raise his draft position. In America, there have to be clearly defined heroes and villains and sadly Pretty Boy played that role when called upon to get his payday. I have nothing but respect for Floyd’s abilities and accomplishments in the ring but I respect fighters like Roy Jones, Jr., Bernard Hopkins, and Winky Wright because they controlled their images and didn’t just play the role of the prima donna to get a get a few more PPV’s buys.
But I agree with Mayweather unequivocally though that Larry Merchant is a freakin’ bully that needs to be cold-cocked one day in the ring for a post-fight interview for talking smack to a fighter or just on general principle and that’s my muthamuckin’ word there.
Thanks for the love Jimmy. The piece is not about “ducking opponents” as I have already been critical of Floyd on that. And if announcers called Floyd out on that I have no problem. And it is really not about whether one likes Floyd. And it is not about fans either.
It is about the role of an announcer, and what their job is. Announcers are not supposed to act exactly like fans or else every crew would emulate “NFL Today” — something that I am not looking forward to. When Merchant blames Hopkins for taking a MANDATORY challenger, that is blatantly biased reporting. When Roy or Floyd pitch shutouts but only get negativity back, that is biased announcing.
Also, no one style has a monopoly on boxing. Fans are entitled to their preference, but announcers are supposed to be objective. Before Ike Ibeabuchi knocked Chris Byrd out, Merchant was pissing all over Byrd and ruined the fight for me because for a couple of rounds it was pure defensive wizardry how he was frustrating Ike. At the same time, I personally really dislike the styles of John Ruiz, Klitchko, and Winky. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Now I will accept the “brawler bias” in its entirety, if I see some equally demeaning and “pricky” Merchant clips on someone like Klitchko who can only jab all night. Before I decide to dismiss the potential race factor, that was my request from those who feel that absolutely no racial bias is at work. That is still my request. I honestly can’t remember, so if anyone wants to help out on the Klitchko front, then that would be great.
if memory serves I think he worked the Klitschko-Ibragimov snoozer and said, at the conclusion of the fight, “This is not what a heavyweight is supposed to do.” (reserving the right to have the wrong fight.)
Also I’d like to have one question answered: Does Floyd think Emanuel Steward doesn’t know what goes on inside a gym? I mean Manny is a hall of fame trainer AND manager. He’s forgotten more boxing than anyone on this board knows.
Guys,
Is this just a situation where Larry Merchant is taking not-to-thinly-vieled swipes at some black boxers for the rocks that they got or the flamboyant styles or the fancy cars they drive?
Also, don’t you think it’s funny that the boxers that Merchant is subtly dissing are counter-punchers with superior defensive skills while the offensive-minded brawler gets all the props, particularly when they are white? If this were a conversation about basketball, the offensive-minded player gets the short end of the stick and the defensive player is vaunted. Of course, the offensive basketball player’s character, style of dress, etc is extrapolated out to black people in general, etc.
Is Kelly Pavlick really just a recruiting poster meant to evoke certain emotions in people?
I think Okori is right about Klitchko and Ibragimov. It was a real snoozer and I think Merchant said so. But I still get the impression that he sees himself as some sort of tough guy by being a jerk to intimidating black fighters.
Okari, Manny might know more than those of us on this board but whether he knows more than Floyd Mayweather might be debatable in my opinion. I’m not really sure where your question comes from but I will say that some of the best fighters he has managed, especially in the lower weights, seemed to get punch drunk pretty fast, Hearns, Norris, Taylor. You can’t put your fighters in so many gym wars and expect them not to be affected.
do you mean Meldrick Taylor or Jermain Taylor?
Meldrick.
oh. cuz AWB Steward never trained Meldrick Taylor. That was Lou Duva.
Okari,
Whoops! My bad.
Floyd is correct and it’s not just Merchant. Lampley has a habit of overlooking one opponents punches then damn near nutting on himself when his favorite makes contact. It was really evident in the PBF-ODLH fight.
MODI,
You already know where I stand with Merchant. (-:
I agree with all your conclusions. I would also submit the ‘Malignaggi Test’ along with the Vlad test.
the bigger question is this: how many times has Malignaggi even fought on HBO?
MODI- I love ya, but this piece was bad. Merchant is a ratings bonanza for HBO. Merchant won’t pussyfoot around a topic that EVERYONE wants broached when it comes to guys like Hopkins, Jones Jr and Gayfeather. You ever hear Merchant pull that stuff on Trinidad, Pavlik, or any other face first chmapion? Of course not. As long as you’re fighting the best available, Merchant won’t diss you. If you’re a chump, he sticks you with needles. There is nothing biased about Merchant.
Isn’t being a “face-first champion” pretty stupid?
I mean, my understanding of fighting was that the person who inflicts the most punishment, while taking the least punishment, is the winner. So, it would seem Larry Merchant and anyone like him is really advocating for a strategy that goes against common sense.
Somebody help me with this.
It’s pretty hard to be a “face first champion” with the alphabet soup of organizations out there. One thing that Larry Merchant regularly ignores, is that the organizations regularly dictate who a fighter fights next. Another is, why face someone that isn’t going to make you the kind of money that you want. Yes, a champ can make some fights happen. But, he shouldn’t have to take a pay cut or cede to ridiculous demands from the challenger to do it. Sometimes, the lesser fighters would fought Roy, Hopkins, and Mayweather in their primes would want them to fight them in THEIR hometowns. That’s a formula for a disaster and a fools errand. Anyone think that if it comes down to a decision and one of them was in a challenger’s home country, that the champ would win the fight?
Oh please. Hatton took less to fight Gayfeather. Pacquiao took less to fight Barrera. Trinidad took less to fight Jones Jr. and Winky. When a fighter cannot pull the crowd, sometimes the champ has to spit the bit to make cheddar. A true champion fights anyone anywhere. Bernard Hopkins didn’t gain any respect because he chose the soft road, like Jones Jr. did like Gayfeather selects. Did anyone ever hear this type of rhetoic directed at Manny Pacquiao? Was this type of rhetoric needed for Julio Cesar Chavez? Was this type of rhetoric needed for Oscar De La Hoya? Of course not. These guys had the SACK to go in there vs the best. You think Miguel Cotto, Antonio Margarito and others @ welterweight take this abuse? Of course not. That’s what happens when you fight legit competition.
BIGMAN- The greatest champions in boxing were face first fighters who didn’t need to cherrypick opponents nor fight “defensively” so they won’t take punishment. Only in the United States Roy Jones Jr. is considered someone elite. Throughout the world, Jones Jr. is thought of as a cherrypicker who avoided tough competition most of his career.
What your ‘face-first, tough guy’ philosophy can get you:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3492875
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“Welterweight Oscar Diaz, who collapsed in his corner after the 10th round of a TKO loss to Delvin Rodriguez on Wednesday night, remained in critical condition Thursday after undergoing surgery overnight at San Antonio’s University Medical Center to relieve swelling on his brain.
“Oscar came through surgery well,” Ron Katz of Rodriguez promoter Star Boxing told ESPN.com after talking to Donna Duva Brooks of Hall of Fame Promotions, Diaz’s promoter, who was at the hospital.
“They had to remove the left side of his cranium in order to help the swelling go down, which apparently was very bad,” Katz said. “He had a subdural hematoma [bleeding on the brain], which was taken care of. During surgery, he apparently showed movement in his arms and his brain pressure was very good, according to the doctor.”
Diaz was under heavy sedation following the operation, but was not in a medically induced coma, Katz said.
Fighting in front of his hometown fans at San Antonio’s Municipal Auditorium, Diaz appeared to be trailing badly in the fight. His right eye was swollen almost completely shut in the main event of the ESPN2-televised “Wednesday Night Fights.”
Just before the 11th round began, Diaz, who was standing in his corner receiving instructions from trainer Tommy Brooks, buckled and passed out. Medical personnel came to his side immediately and within a few minutes he was on a stretcher and being taken to a waiting ambulance.
“When he left the ring, he was completely stationary and he didn’t look good,” Star Boxing chief Joe DeGuardia said. “They couldn’t get him to respond. They cleared a path right away and took him to the hospital.”
It had been a grueling, physical fight between Diaz (26-3, 12 KOs), 25, and Rodriguez (23-2-1, 14 KOs), 28, of Danbury, Conn. That kind of fight was nothing new for Diaz, a brawler who has been in several hard fights, none more difficult than an 11th-round TKO loss to Golden Johnson on Nov. 10, 2006.
I don’t even know why anyone argues with a dude like Jimmy. He’s a fool and not worth the conversation.
Dudes taking less money to fight and putting their faces first so that when they’re middle-aged, they won’t be able to think.
Yeah, Larry Merchant must be some damn powerful wizard.
Let me see if I get this shit straight. In every sport defense wins you championship, but in boxing you get ridiculed for having defensive skills? And more ridiciulously you get applauded for getting your face beat-in? That’s some alice in wonderland shit.
Must admit I’m a casual boxing fan, but it seems to me the guys that lead with their face are basically relying on the big punch. And if they had the ability to land the big punch without getting hit, then they would do so. Fact is these fighters that get their face busted up, lack all the necessary body movement to minimize getting pulverized. No head movement, no upper body movement, and very slow a foot. So for the face first fighter, his risk/reward, is to lead with his face in hope of landing the big blow or a series of big blows. His lack of skill demand that particular strategy.
For my money, I’ll take the guy that can master the sweet science, any day.
This current heavyweight, I think he is russian, his days as a champion are numbered, as soon as someone come by with a modicum of skills, the russian will be put to sleep.
On the announcers. I’m cool with Lampley, I think he tries to be objective. Merchant, he been talking down to fighters and bad mouthing them from the days of Larry Holmes. I’ve always felt that Merchant’s blue eyes were a dead give away.
I”m no boxing expert, I’m barely competent, but the idea that all great boxers were face first champions is ludicrous.
Ali wasn’t face first. He used movement and speed to out box opponents but also had a big enough punch to knock folks out.
That right there invalidates Jimmy’s whole point.
Dude,
I remember when ODLH was on the verge of hiring some supposedly legendary obscure trainer and took one look at the guys face which was very grizzled and a nose that was broken many times. His reported reaction was “Are you crazy?!”
Make them miss and pay. Defense is rarely appreciated on boxing telecasts. Lamply sometimes appreciates it. Kellerman too. But Steward usually has no use for it and Merchant disdains it to the point of sounding like he doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about. I certainly enjoy fighters with an effective defense like Mayweather and especially James Toney. I appreciate the bombs away fights also but not to the exclusion of a well fought tactical battle. I don’t think I would enjoy the sport as much if it were fought the same way all the time. Same reason I can’t watch arena football. The lack of D is unsettling to me.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Cotto by KO!
KEVDOG- It’s because of stupid ass fans like yourself we must put up with inferior boxers like we do these days. During the 80’s, we didn’t see none of this pussy fighting and cherrypicking that exists today. Fighters fought “face first” and made millions and made boxing entertaining. Who the fuck cares if they get brain damaged or not? You’re not getting brain damaged. This is the career they chose and they know the dangers, and finances to be earned, that exist.
Why do these Gayfeather fans act like such pussies? This is boxing! If you don’t like violence, Gayfeather should stick to wrestling.
BIG MAN- Ali is credited for changing boxing and almost ruining it. His skill was legendary, but when he had to sit there and earn the respect of his opponent, he would fry their faces with vicious rights and lefts. The problem was too many fighters who couldn’t fight inherited that style. Plenty of boxing purists HATED Ali’s style originally, since it was so out of character for boxers to bounce around the ring and dance. Only Ali perfected the style while others mimmicked it to lesser results. Ali’s greatest performance was as a flatfooted fighter against Geoge Foreman. Ali stood there, absorbed Foreman’s best shots, and turned slugger and KO’ed him. Ali turned legend after that fight.
If you name the top 25 fighters in boxing history, few will be of the Ali ilk. Boxing celebrates warriors. It’s a violent sport and isnt meant for the weak of heart. Boxers who don’t have the courage to take a beating inside the ring are looked upon as weak, especially by opponents. Hard to talk to guys who never sparred, much less boxed. Guys don’t know what it feels like to have a guy in front of you ready to tear your head off and you having to find a way to tear his off.
AWB- As I said before, boxing is meant to be about violence. That’s the lure. A defensive match up is all fine and dandy, but there has to come a point and time when someone is trying to take someone out. We want to see fists thrown in both directions. Oscar’s greatest fight was his brawl with Vargas and his fight with Ike Quartey. Oscar was pretty much stationary for both opponents and did a great job managing the fights. On the other hand, Oscar’s biggest disgrace was the cowardly performance he put on by “defending” his belt by running against Felix “Tito” Trinidad. Oscar fought “intelligently” and got booed out of the arena, laughed at by critics, and subsequently lost a decision in a fight that disappointed everybody! A true fighter defends his belt by fighting, not running.
Here is Ring Magazine’s Top 10 greatest fighters of the past 80 years:
Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Harry Greb
Benny Leonard
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
I count 3 guys known as defensive wizards (Sweet Pea, Benny Leonard, Pep), and 2 others guys of “Ali’s ilk” (Ali, Ray Leonard).
I see 3 guys who could be classified as “face first” (Armstrong, Greb, Duran).
Looks like someone here doesn’t understand exactly who is actually being ‘celebrated’ by boxing historians.
Note: Ray Robinson not included because he fits in whatever category he wants. Joe Louis was slugger, but not a face first one.
ODLH’s greatest fight was against Quartey and Vargas? I disagree about the Quartey fight, he was getting his ass beat for a great part of the fight and IMO got lucky. Against Vargas he OUTBOXED the bigger stronger fighter who was trying to take his head off. So yeah, that was probably one of his greatest fights.
Thanks for the list Sweet Jones.
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