CELTICS WIN… and Expose “The Winner Myth”
June 18, 2008
Last year Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen were unable to lead each of their teams into the playoffs. Today they are all world champions.
Last year Doc Rivers coached the Celtics to the worst record in the NBA. This series he out-coached 9-time champion Phil Jackson at every conceivable turn.
Last year Celtics General Manager Danny Ainge, coming off a trade that exchanged Sebastian Telfair for Brandon Roy, was ranked by most as one of the worst GM’s in the entire NBA. This year Ainge was named the NBA Executive of the Year after his acquisitions of Garnett and Allen.
Last year Laker General Manager inspired “Fire Mitch Kupchak” websites by “The People of Los Angeles”. This year Kupchak was the runner-up to Ainge in Executive of the Year voting.
Last year, Kupchak’s prize acquisition Pau Gasol never won a single playoff game. This year he played in the Finals after Mitch stole him from Memphis for Kwame cents on the dollar.
Last year Kobe Bryant led one of the worst supporting casts in NBA history into the playoffs, but was castigated by critics. This year he was awarded the NBA MVP for his new-found unselfishness and improved shot shot-selection — despite having no increase in assists or shooting percentage.
What has been the single greatest factor in changing the public perception and legacy of these men? LUCK. Ainge and Kupchak were lucky they had former GM friends in the fire sale business. Kobe was lucky to get help and the Celts “Big Three” were lucky to help each other. Doc was lucky he wasn’t fired last year because unlike his relentless critics (I’m looking at you Bill Simmons!), Ainge knew the value of luck, knew that Doc was previously unlucky, and didn’t punish him for it.
So what does it all mean? It means that:
“the winner myth” is exposed.
Garnett, Pierce, and Allen were already winners for the last 10 years, but we were too blinded by their bumbling teammates to see it…
KG still does enough to be a winner without demanding the ball in the 4th quarter, driving hard to the lane, or ever having the killer instinct of a Tim Duncan…
“winners” need not be basketball “gods” who deserve their own separate category as there is no shame in not being a Tim, a Michael, a Larry, or a Magic…
…even though basketball gods still need great teammates…
we are just as blinded by “the loser myth” we would have eternally tatooed to Ray Allen had the Cavs won Game 7 of the 2nd round…
most perceived “winners” become them because they have the luxury of teammates who pick up the slack for them during their slumps and bad games…
Phil Jackson could never have won one single championship if he coached the previous rosters that Doc Rivers coached.
it is time to redefine “winner” from “win a championship” to “contend for a championship”…
Charles Barkely, the Mailman, and John Stockton do not need any trophy validation…
the Patrick Ewing-led Knicks advancing in the playoffs nine times during the 1990’s decade is one of basketball’s most remarkable and rarest of team achievements…
if Bernard King never busted his knee that he and Ewing would be counting rings…
the Buffalo Bills four consecutive Super Bowls might be football’s greatest team achievement..
Jim Kelly is a winner, but Trent Dilfer is not…
Randy Moss is no less a winner because David Tyree was touched by God…
John Elway is not a winner because Terrel Davis saved the end of his career, but because he led three other crappy teams to the Super Bowl without him…
Dan Marino is one of football history’s greatest winners because he led his team into the playoffs 11 times without ever having as much as Sammy Davis as a running back…
Donovan McNabb is a winner who made it to the Super Bowl the only season in his entire career that management provided him with a wide receiver who can catch a football.
one single reversed play would undo the fates of every single Super Bowl Champion this decade besides the dominant Bucs and only one of the three patriots teams…
there is no such thing as a football coaching genius — only very good coaches with great quarterbacks…
includes Bill Belichick (see Cleveland), Mike Shanahan (see Raiders; post-Elway), Mike Holmgren (minus Favre), Charlie Weis (see disaster), Steve Spurrier, and any other white coach that white announcers love attaching these labels to while bypassing Tony Dungy in their commentary…
Omar Minaya didn’t fire Mets Manager Willie Randolph yesterday — Billy Wagner did…
Jim Leyland or Clint Hurdle will receive far more rope than Randolph for their promising teams… …and that yes, race plays a role in these perceptions…
Joe Torre managed and Derek Jeter played just as well the last seven years, just with less playoff pitching…
the reason we love “The Winner Myth” is because it satisfies our need for heroes…
and we love the “loser myth” even more because it satisfies our need for superiority…
there is really no such thing as goats — only scapegoats…
if we were at Wrigley that day we would have both reached for that ball just like Steve Bartman and everyone else surrounding him…
“character” doesn’t mean nearly as much to championships as great pitching, a great defense, a red hot goalie, and the luck of a top 5 draft pick in that special year…
So why did the Celtics beat the Lakers this year? Because they had a little more hustle, a little more defense, and a little more coaching. But most of all, they had a lot more luck. Andrew Bynum got hurt this year and the Celtics stayed healthy — and there you have it folks.
Don’t believe me? Wait until next year when Bynum returns and Kobe is holding the trophy as we reevaluate and revalidate his “winning legacy” for the 100th time… instead of recognizing him right at this very moment for the complete and unconditional winner that he is. And if we can’t recognize that…
…then we are the losers.
Comments
103 Responses to “CELTICS WIN… and Expose “The Winner Myth””
Got something to say?
Very good post, though I wouldn’t call it luck, I’d call it taking advantage of opportunity.
Absolutely on point, Modi. And, if you really want to go there… Jordan without Pippen is not the greatest player of all time. I’ve always felt Pippen got shafted because the myth of winner generally requires one person, one star, above all others. In terms of skills, the NBA player that most resembles Pippen right now is… Kevin Garnett. Imagine a SG with Jordan-like skills (say, Kobe) having Garnett as his number two man.
It almost happened, too. If only Kevin McHale didn’t hate the Lakers. Bad luck for the Lakers, good luck for the Celtics….
Actually, Odom stinks and he is a loser.
But I get your point.
Well said, Modi.
I don’t want to hear about officiating, or 2-3-2 formats, or Hollywood fans, or soft Euro’s, or the “fix” was in for New England teams, or any excuse one can manufacture; here’s the Truth: The Celtics, from top to bottom - from the 16 banners, the living legend of Russell (who looked KG in the eye and told him he would win…we all should’ve listened), the ghost of Red, the Ainge “plan,” the GENIUS of Doc, “Ubuntu,” the Big Two Featuring Ray Allen (some ol Simmons bullshit, but at least it was funny), the young Rajon Rondo (no broadcaster EVER said his name without saying “young’ first), the ancient bench, and, yes, the Up South redneck fans who nonetheless cheered hard for a mostly-Black team - were absolutely the better team this year, in this Finals series, against this group of Lakers who, from top to bottom - from the “logo,” the legacy of Showtime, Jerry Buss, Zen Buddhism, and all the way down to Ira Newble and the rest of the Laker Girls - were not worthy of title this year.
TheLastPoet - you didn’t have to throw the Laker girls in there. I think they would have at least showed some heart and went down swinging.
What about Tracy McGrady?
LOL Shon! You’re probably right, but go down they would have, nonetheless.
This Celtic team was hungrier; in fact, I kinda admire these new Afro-Celts and the way they played the game this year - especially in this series.
Cosign, T3: Mr McGrady just MIGHT be a loser… Maybe it runs in the family?
Yeah, McGrady just might actually be a loser. But there are always exceptions.
This is terrible of me, I admit, but I want to hear all the Laker fans - especially my friend KevDog, admit the Celts are the best! All these months of hearing about how the Lakers were going to stomp us………..vindication feels good!
I’m also tired of hearing the need for some to label people winners or losers - what does it mean anyway? I can’t stand Kobe Bryant, but he wants to win as much as anyone. It’s great to win, and it sucks to lose. Surely most if not all players feel that way.
LastPoet,
Simmons also officially retired that joke about Allen after the Detroit series.
mark - Boston still sucks.
You Mark didn’t I tell you that those dudes would win it all last year didn’t I???
Man I need to go play the lottery I am on a roll!!!
And Modi don’t be trying to steal my title as the official Jimmy the greek (minus the big black buck stuff) of sports on my mind with the predictions LOL!!!!
Anyway great post modi and so right about black coaches. And Lastpoet I agree it is amazing with the makeup of the celts. I would have never imagined a celtic team lead by a brotha and having this many brothas on the team…..crazy.
Stopmike on the garnett and pippen thing I totally agree.
Modi why was Scalibrini being interviewed after the game on NBA TV……before house or perkins or powe or posey or etc. Man that was crazy and I even think scalibrine was uncomfortable with the whole thing.
Oh and add Mcnabb to the list with Marino.
Temple, I think that T-Mac gets a bad rap. Just about every series he entered his team was SUPPOSED to lose to a more potent team. The only exception was last year againsts the Jazz where he had an excellent series, but know one besides him and Yao showed up. If they had Luis Scola last year, they beat Utah easy. This tear Yao goes down… I feel bad for T-Mac really…
origin, I missed the scalabrine interview… I’ll also call an audible and do a late McNabb insert….
Luck, talent and good role players will take you over the top everytime. It took luck a while to catch up to P.J. Brown, a 17 year career, setting picks, doing the dirty work on the interior defense. Never was the star, but always showed up and gave a professional effort. P.J. Brown is a winner! So is Eddie House who seemingly shows up on a different each year, plays better D than given credit for, and put in some decent min at Pguard in the series. Then there is Possey, always have that dagger 3 ball.
This is something that has bothered me for years as well–people just don’t understand how much luck plays a role in game outcomes. For example, forgive the homerism, but Gibson went down in the Cavs-Celtics series, forcing Delonte West to play more minutes. For all we know, a rested West hits that 3 in the closing minutes of Game 7, instead of the tired West coming up a little short, and the Cavs win the NBA Finals as a result. (They have traditionally matched up very well against both Detroit and Los Angeles). And each fan could give some example like that about his team. Anyway, great post MODI!
Good look Modi………….it just seems like they trotted out scalibrini like they were trying to give him some simpathy. He just looked uncomfortable and out of place in the press conference. They brought him out right after garnett.
Also why did phil not play DJ benga??? Why didn’t phil post up kobe (as he did jordan when he came back from the first retirement) so that he could conserve his energy.
Also why did kobe most of the series penetrate all the way into the paint. Instead of doing the mid range dribble drive and pull up jumper that jordan did so much during his years of playing the knicks (92-93) and the years after his first retirement.. Kobe was too often getting caught in the paint trying to shoot or pass.
But I blame this on phil. Kobe had to work too hard on the perimeter. Instead he should have been posting up Allen.
Oh and why didn’t phil have odom post up once during the whole series??
Garnett didn’t guard him the whole series. He didn’t post up one time this series…not one.
Yeah luch does play a role.
Remember when danny manning blew out his knee when he was with the suns. They had teh best record at the all-star break.
Or how about when cedric cebolous (sp?) broke his leg and wasn’t able to play in the suns vs bulls series.
LP:
You know Afro-Celts is redundant. Talkin’ ’bout them Formorians.
Origin,
I tip my hat to you sir! You did indeed tell me that, and I was doubtful. Never so happy to be proven wrong!
And Shon…..hehehehehe!!
Sorry, anonymous is me. Not at home now:)
Origin:
Back in 1984, the Celtics finished out a crucial 4th Quarter against the Lakers with these five players on the floor: Larry Bird, Cedric Maxwell, Dennis Johnson, Gerald Henderson and Robert Parrish. The Coach - KC Jones. On the bench - ML Carr, Quinn Buckner, and what was left of Carlos Clark.
The Celts have been Blacker and Deffer than the shadow of Bird and McHale tends to allow. Bill Russell not only PLAYED as a champion. He COACHED as a champion. So, from Russell to Jones to Rivers, the Celtics (that perceived band of uber-White Boys) have had each of their great runs punctuated by Black men at the helm.
Go figure.
I hear you brotha temple. I was refering more so to the fact that the team was overwhelmingly black.
I mean Scalibrini is the only dude who isn’t and the fact that not one of there so called good players is non-black.
And I have always repected the celtics (not the media who covered them) for often giving black folks a chance to perform as coaches and players when other teams wouldn’t give them that same chance. Many of this was thanks to Red.
MODI:
I don’t really think that T-Mac is a loser. I do believe that he improved his proficiency at inbounding the ball (a challenge for greats like Isiah Thomas and James Worthy), the point would be moot. To win in this league, you invariably need help.
I’ve always asserted that teams tended to need two guys who could drop 30 or better yet, three guys who could drop 20+ on any given night to win it all. And I mean a Playoff 30 or Playoff 20 - not a regular season 30 or 20. A playoff 30 (like an Iverson 30 or a Pierce 30) that is derived from carry your team on your back is invaluable. Not every one can do that — and it’s hard to win 4 games against elite competition when you go it alone.
Patrick Ewing never played with another player capable of a Playoff 30 on any given night. Ewing always played with Once In a Blue Moon Scorers. From an erratic Starks to a fossilized Rolando to a past prime Derek Harper, the story was always the same. Every cat with rings since I began watching in the mid-70’s has had serious help.
In this series, Kobe didn’t have any help from his teammates or his coaches. The Triangle was violently rebuked by the Neutral Zone Trap for the second time in the Finals. The Pistons and Celtics both utilized a version of the New Jersey Devils vaunted Snoozer of a D to stifle Kobe Bean. In the Hoops Version, the inimitable and indefatigable Scott Stevens was played by Tayshaun Prince and Paul Pierce and James Posey. The role of Martin Brodeur was played by Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett and whomever else manned the baseline in those series from play to play.
The SCHEME won. The NZT is like insecticide to great offense. Kobe Bean turned into Kobe Bug (Windhshield Meat) precisely because the Hockey Solution to the NZT cannot be applied using the Triangle. Against the NZT, no matter how talented you are, you cannot carry the puck up and down the ice and attack the net — but you can dump and chase — provided you are strong enough to win in the corners and that you are able to post players in front of the net capable of holding their ground.
Same thing in basketball - roughly. The equivalent of dump and chase, for basketball, means running, forcing tempo, getting shots up on the glass, collectively crashing for rebounds, and also posting up your best players to impose your will. The Triangle calls for none of that. Attacking the middle of the NZT is foolhardy. So many turnovers, so little space. In a sense, the Lakers were lucky. When Eric Lindros ran up against the equivalent of this defense, he lost his head — several times.
In a parallel universe where all the basketball players are white, and the hockey players are Black, there are “Inter Stellar Democrats” suggesting that the recent win by the Lakers was the result of biology.
Yeah, O:
It’s just crazy that the perception, historically, of the Celtics has more to do with their fan base than with their personnel.
temple’s last long post was gangsta
Temple - “In this series, Kobe didn’t have any help from his teammates or his coaches. The Triangle was violently rebuked by the Neutral Zone Trap for the second time in the Finals.” And that’s the killer. Phil again refused to even try to adapt.
mark - you know its funny. I actually like KG and Paul (fellow jayhawk) and Dennis Johnson is one of my favorite players of all time. The Celtics and the rest of the boston teams are probably the only teams that I dislike because of the city itself and not so much the players. A lot of people have been able to separate the two, but I never have. So while a part of me liked seeing Kevin and Paul get their rings, the people in the stands made my stomach turn. I’ve only been their once, but I’ve never heard any different from any of my friends who live there or went to school there. Being from the South, I was really just astonished at the level of racism of a northern city. We had multiple incidents and I was only there a few days. Also, like Temple was saying, there is rarely a mention of any of the great history of their black players outside of Russell. Hell, when is the last time anyone has even mentioned K.C. Jones? So, cheers for KG and Paul and even Doc, but never any love for Boston from me.
Thanks BM:
I should say, in defense of Tex Winter, that my post is based on my understanding of the offense (limited as it is) — never ran it, never loved it. Tex would probably say that the Lakers never really ran it this year — and that Payton was so resistant in ‘04, they didn’t run it then.
T3,
Your remarks about the historical Blackness of the Celtics team is well taken, of course. But we both know that neither the media nor Boston’s fan base saw it that way. Also, in addition to Henderson, Cornbread, DJ, and the others, you neglected to mention Walton, Wedman, Hastings, Carlisle, Ainge, Kite, etc. Rest assured, though, the NBA, the city of Boston, and the rest of hard-working white America (thanbks, Hillary!) never forgot! Boston started three whites during their 80s heyday, the Lakers started four Blacks. These sad facts, testaments to our vexing race consciousness, was never lost upon either city or the NBA as a whole.
Shon,
I actually live in Boston - moved here in ‘86. The city itself has changed enormously in that time. My neighborhood is the most diverse in town, but others are becoming more so all the time. It’s kind of ironic, because before the Civil War, Boston was perhaps the most enlightened northern city with regards to race. But during the 20th century, the blue collars, particularly the “one toilet” Irish, had real racial issues, leading the the infamous busing issue in the 70’s. But black Celtic players are revered here. The media, nationally, doesn’t mention anybody but Russell, but locals who follow the team know perfectly well how important the Jones boys, Sanders, Jo-Jo White, Maxwell, and many others were to the history of the franchise.
Anyway, the city is on the right track. I hope it continues.
mark - that’s good to hear. Seriously.
Temple - Tex actually seems to think they stuck with it too long in several games.
http://www.sportshubla.com/2008/06/13/phil-stayed-with-the-triangle-too-long-in-game-4/#more-703
You should check out the book The Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb; a lot of it is about how humanity is obsessed with narrating post facto–the winner myth is just a sports based example of this.
mark - oh yeah, you guys still suck.
Totally agree on the character part. I’d much rather see a team of championship-caliber dirtbags that hate each other than a group of runners-up or also-rans with “heart,” “grit,” and other such witchcraft that has plenty to do with appeal but nothing to do with outcomes.
Shon thanks. So Tex is basically saying that The Triangle is like a web browser. It’s a window - not a frame. Phil didn’t want to open the window.
It’s all about the Add-ons and the Themes (hello Firefox). It sounds like Phil never checked for updates. That was a particularly egregious failing on Firefox’ Download Day where they sought to break a Guinness World Record for downloads in 24 hours.
The whole thing makes me think that the shift away from Big to Small is mirroring these broader cultural shifts. As far as I can tell, the 2008 Celtics and the 2004 Pistons were the last two teams to win championships without a single 7 footer clocking a minute of meaningful court time since 1983 Philadelphia 76ers and before that - the 1977-78 Washington Bullets.
Ever since then, it’s been about the bigs. Curiously enough, the Lakers have four 7 footers. Only 1 played (Gasol - I’m not counting Chris Mihm).
Temple3’s explanation of the NZT, and how it neutralized the Celtics, is pretty amazing. Nice work, T3.
The answer on how to solve the Celtics’ defense was there all along, though… Phil Jax just needed to watch the tape of those earlier games against the Hawks and Cavs. It’s pretty funny that in winning the title, this Celtics team set a record for most playoff loses along the way. They went from a 66-win team to one that was barely above .500, even against the weak Eastern Conference team.
That’s not to take anything away from their title. They won, period. That’s just to say that this team could have been beat. And for that reason, I wouldn’t bet too much on a repeat next year, you know….
Which ties back in to the initial post: some teams are genuinely great. Those teams are the dynasties - they do it year after year. There are also the near-dynasty teams, teams that win often, and only loss when something unusual goes wrong against them (see the Spurs). Then you have your teams that take advantage of timing, of health, of good breaks, and hot players at the right time… those are your 2006 Heat. The Celtics this year may be much closer to the Heat of 2006 (and believe me, they will also be paying a steep price in salary cap terms in a few seasons) than any of those other teams.
For the fans, though, a championship is all that matters. How you get it doesn’t really matter… it’s a title. In this case, the journey, however it goes, is worth it if the destination is correct.
LP:
Not quite. I was only speaking about the ‘84 team that beat the Lakers — and precisely because of which players were on the floor at the end of the 4th quarter. I don’t recall if McHale was in foul trouble or not - but he was riding the pine. Cornbread was still a SERIOUS player in 1984. Many of the other players you mentioned arrived in 1986 or simply were not essential to the W.
How could you forget Jerry Sichting? Has he been relegated to an “etc.”? Damn - that’s cold. Jerry could hit a spot up jumper like it was nobody’s business.
LP - I think the Celtics were perceived as a “White Wash” squad because of the end of their bench - not because of their starters. For the first half of the 80’s, they almost always had 3 Black starters. Parish, Tiny Archibald, Cornbread - then on to Quinn Buckner and Gerald Henderson. McHale didn’t start. So, when they were healthy, the only “white” starters were usually Bird and Ainge. Say what you want about Ainge, but he could play.
The END of their BENCH was crazy though. Greg Kite - damn. Chris Ford was terrible and he started for a minute. But on a certain level - even the end of the bench was an equal opportunity bonanza because there was NO BIGGER BUSTER than ML Carr. Seems like he had a job for 6 years too long.
And, to extend this a bit, at the end of the 1980’s, the Celtics would have had Reggie Lewis and Len Bias on their roster. It would have been a wrap — and the Ice between that Gang Green and Black folk might have thawed while the bullet holes were still fresh in Ronnie’s ass.
On the whole, I think they get a bad wrap when their franchise history with respect to race is so much better than the Lakers. It wasn’t until Magic Johnson that the Lakers :A) figured out how to beat the Celtics B) started doing right by Black players in the pipeline (Jabbar, Kermit Washington, Elgin Baylor — where’s the love??) Baylor saved the franchise from bankruptcy - but West is the league logo (don’t know how that transpired, but it’s quite phukkin’ odd).
I’ve been meaning to write a piece called “Rethinking the C’s.”
Thanks SML.
Great point about the losses. I, like most people, thought the C’s were going to win when the announcement was made that Garnett and Allen would join Pierce. I had idea that Kendrick Perkins was as good as he turned out to be. However, my biggest concern about the team was how they would defend the perimeter in the spring-summer. When they signed James Posey, I figured it was a wrap.
If this team can add bits and pieces, they can repeat, but people’s roles will need to change. For instance, if I’m Doc Rivers, I’m sending Rajon Rando home with Ray Allen. If Rando could shoot even remotely close to that, he’d be unbelievable. If he had a jumper that people had to respect, his quicks, hops and heart would cause a great deal of pain to centers all over the league. He is a POSTER waiting to happen every time he hops into the lane.
They’ll need to replace guys like PJ Brown and Cassell - but their young guys are going to be immeasurably better next year. Powe and others aren’t merely a year older. They’ve contributed to teams that knocked off Kobe, LeBron, Mr. Big Shot and Mean Joe. There are no guarantees - but I like their chances of repeating better than anyone else.
[…] Ainge was named the NBA Executive of the Year after his acquisitions of Garnett and Allen. Read Full Article at Sports On My Mind Sphere: Related […]
Temple - Mihm played great. The Celtics seemed very pleased with him.
Damn Temple. Let me pull up a chair in the front row and take some notes! Honestly, i am not qualified to respond on the triangle offense vs. the NZT. I don’t know how much personell makes the difference. I know that D-Wil is a big fan of the triangle when executed properly and probably could speak better to its flexability. In any event, Phil jackson got his ass handed to him, and what made this Finals different for him is that it was the first time that he went into one as the underdog (he was favored against the Pistons (but Malone’s injury threw things off a bit)
– Will check out EroticTangerines
– Andrew: can’t rember who said the quote, but it went like this: “give me a three run home-run and I’ll show you “chemistry” (not exactly the same as “character” but sometimes confused)
– Forget the Greg Kite off-the-bench images of the 1980’s. No organization was fairer than the celtics when it comes to black ball players. It it all had to do with one man: Red Auerbach. He drafted the first black player (Chuck Cooper) in 1950. Started the first black starting five in 1964. Hired the first black coach. has hired 5 separate black coaches.
Auerbach wasn’t even motivated by “social progress”. The man just wanted to wanted to win basketball games. So much so that it cut through commonly held racial prejudices. When the team got really white in the 1980’s it was for the very same reasons. He wanted the best players. Bird, McHale, Ainge, and Walton that one year could flat-out ball and all were tough (the entire bench sucked black or white) Of course, then Boston fans may have loved the imagery, but Red just wanted to win.
Temple
Ray Allen and Rondo are already thich as thieves and Rondo has shown remarkable improvment on his jumper. Right now it’s mainly repetition and confidence for him instead of some of the mechanical problems he had at Kentucky.
Celts should make it back the Finals if Tony Allen progresses and they find another big to replace PJ.
MODI
Who said Phil was the underdog? Not the pundits or the casual fans. After the Lakers knocked off the Spurs in five (And Manu still has not gotten enough blame for that) people were basically crowning them.
I would pay money to see Rondo with a jumper…damn. Do you remember the way he almost flushed it in Odom’s grille (ugggghhhh!!!) on the baseline. You don’t want to be trailing him or off balance after having to play that jumper. Curtains! and POSTER!!
okay Big Man, maybe I’m wrong about Phil. let me just say that it was the first time he wasn’t the clear favorite…
T3,
So I finally got a chance to look up the “Formorians.”
Damn, our ancestors traveled far and wide, didn’t they?
But all the way to ancient Ireland?
Wow.
Kinda reminds me of the myth of Yakub (betcha didn’t think I’d take it there…), mad scientists, perhaps Formorians, create a race of Bretons and then… disappear. Leaving behind the Irish and Scots who just happen to be some hard-headed, pipe-blowin, skirt-wearin warriors to this day, similar to some of their distant, darker cousins.
It’s fascinating, and I love history, especially mythology.
MODI:
I’d love to hear from others on the Triangle. Based on the little bit that I’ve read, it’s a wholly dynamic thing - but it seems like the approach was fairly conservative during the series (reinforced by the link upthread).
I think personnel makes a huge difference. The Celtics have a number of interchangeable, quick, long, rangy players who can go from one foot in the lane to assist on a Bryant Drive to one foot on the 3 point line. Posey did that all series long. So did Rando. Every team can’t do that — even when the players can be convinced to try it.
We know damn well our Knicks can’t do it.
Temple unless you are Josh smith……………Josh smith treated Rondo like a step child during that ATL series.
Exhibit A, B, C, D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgJ2Ar-GWwQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZBFbVqtxg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11byw7o1p3A
Never mind exhibit D.
no they can’t Temple… no thet can’t…
but speaking of ex-Knicks… was I the only one puzzled about Ariza never getting a chance of the bench considering his defense?
Nope you weren’t the only one. And as I asked before how did DJ Benga not get one minute in the series????
Shone - lol. I’ll be laughing all the way to next season!
Has anyone checked the LA trauma center for Kev??!
Origin, Mbenga should never get tick. That’s one clumsy cat.
Origin:
Josh Smith is a grown ass man - already.
Modi:
Yeah, I thought TA should have got more run too.
Big Man - Well, Mbenga is certainly better than Mihm and at least they couldn’t push him around like a rag doll. Oh, wait, Mihm got a playoff roster spot instead of Mbenga, even though Mbenga had actually been playing and Mihm has been on the bench all year long. Brilliant.
Temple - Yeah Josh Smith is a grown ass man.
As far as the Triangle, while I’m not expert, when it is flowing correctly it is pretty damn tough to stop. Problem with this team is that they only really run it correctly in spurts and even then our shooters are just too streaky. It sounds like Tex wanted to mix it up, but Phil, at least I guess (fuck I don’t know what the hell he was thinking. Chris Mihm, what the fuck… anyway…), was thinking that the guys just weren’t running it correctly and was convinced if they kept faith in the offense things would “click.” I’m no zenmaster, but a 39 point drubbing suggests otherwise.
The triangle requires movement, something our guys don’t do well especially when they are getting beaten. They stand around and wait for Kobe to bail them out.
The triangle requires good shooters, something our guys don’t do well especially when they are getting beaten. Our guys are the best shooters in the world when they are winning, but couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn if a game is on the line or they are blowing a 24 point lead.
The triangle requires thinking players with mental toughness, something our guys don’t do well and lose completely at times, especially when they are getting beaten. There were so many times during that series when I felt like guys were making plays I wouldn’t have made even when I was in junior high. I thought I was exaggerating but Rick Fox agreed with me.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-foxviews18-2008jun18,0,5114312.story
Temple - So, to a certain extent, I think Phil wanted his guys to have faith in the offense that got them there. My take is that Phil should have realized his guys weren’t getting it done and adjusted. But like that butt whooping we took the Pistons, Phil lives by the offense and dies by it and just does not want to adjust his game plan. I personally feel like there is just no way he should have sat on the bench and let the Celtics gameplan Kobe out of the game. You HAVE to find a way to get Kobe not just scoring, but scoring near the hoop. Phil also should know his players and their tendencies at this point. But often when the team was obviously rattled and on its heels, Phil simply had no answer and the team flat out quit last night.
Might be time for him to pull out a book or two to read this summer. My suggested topics, the power of changing and realizing when you are wrong.
As far as next year, well I won’t count my guys out just yet. Bynum will be back and there are whispers that a certain Tru Warrior is definitely interested in joining his pal Kobe in LA.
Great win by the Celtics. Congrats to Doc Rivers, KG, Paul P, Jesus Shuttlesworth, P.J. Brown and the rest of the guys.
I think this team can repeat as champions but they will need to re-sign Posey. Also, P.J. Brown might stick around for one more year being that he didn’t play a full year this time around. I think Cassell will call it a career but Rondo and House will hold down the PG spots.
The Lakers need another legitimate threat besides Kobe. I’m not sold that Bynum would’ve made a difference this year. And just because he’s coming back next year doesn’t necessarily mean the Lakers will automatically be in the Finals. Look for New Orleans to be better and the Spurs to also be in the hunt.
The Lakers need a point guard who can score, penetrate the lane and dish it out to spot up guys. Also, if i’m Kupchak, i’m trading Lamar Odom while he still has a little value(that value is being 28 yrs old and a good rebounder). He is too inconsistent and has no heart.
Antwan Jamieson is a free agent and maybe someone who could be more effective than Odom. Ron Artest has hinted that he is not leaving Sac-Town, so we’ll see.
I’m not a fan of the Triangle offense or Phil for that matter. Talent matters! The celts was the most talented team on BOTH ends of the court. I don’t profess great knowledge on the triangle, but I’ll take talent over the triangle 24/7/365.
Why does the triangle only work if Mike and Scottie or Kobe and Shaq are in the line-up? If the triangle is such a great offense and a guarantor of championships, why have’nt the other teams implemented this system? I recall Jim Clemons tried the triangle in Dallas and at the end of the year he was in the unemployment line.
I know Phil has the rings, but all I see, is that he give the ball to his most talented player (usually an MVP) , then Phil takes a seat and occassionally whistle in some instructions. Such as give the ball to Mike, or dump it into Shaq. And for this some call him brilliant.
Just checking in from a motel somewhere in the middle of the country…..
Food for….
The triangle was derived to defeat zone defenses….. it just so happens to work against man defenses as well…..
And no, LA did not run the triangle much… Why? Because of the picket fence the Cess set up across the FT line to top of the key to meet the LA offense and the staunch refusal of the Lakers to haul ass up the court with the Celtics and position themselves to run the damn offense…. as was told to me in an email by a longtime Lakers writer: “they don’t trust themselves enough yet to be out from under Kobe.” In other words, when in doubt, hand the ball to Kobe and let’s go from there…. a self-defeating offense to be sure.
Imhotep-
Eddie J. runs it in D.C….. Why don’t other teams use it? Because it takes at least two years for players to break habits formed all the other “normal” and run it instinctively…. the reasons from there are obvious. And yes, talent does matter.
So, look as objectively as possible at the Lakers and ask how the Lakers were the #1 seed in the West and got to the Finals with as little overall talent - comparatively - as they have…. more then San An? than the Jazz? then the Hornets? than the Suns? than the Nuggs? And since they produced more than those other teams - and they did - what was the separating factor?
Maybe, execution of the triangle?
Quiet as kept - Red Holtzman used pieces of it w/ the Knicks of Clyde, Reed, the Senator, Pearl, etc….
peace.
Grand - Jamison would be great. Richard Jefferson, Stephen Jackson, Shane Battier, Tayshaun Prince, fuck. Anyone but Odom at this point. No, Artest won’t opt out, but I’m hearing sign and trade is definitely on the table. Two dream destinations - LA or NY. Things change real quickly and the Kings could always roll out the red carpet for him.
Great piece on winners and losers! Loved It. I believe a lot of who’s I.Ded as a winner or loser has to do with association and disassociation with teams, cities, and locations and how they’re fairing. One thing we forget is that there is only one overall winner in team play and we tend to forget all the greatness by all teams that transpired in getting there.
I think it’s a media infused assumption that you’re a loser or stained as a loser if you haven’t won a championship ring. And a lot of people have bought into it. It didn’t use to be that way. Your mention of Dan Marino is a prime example. I don’t think there is any other one football player other than Marino I would have paid to see play other than him (perhaps Lem Barney). I’m not talking about teams, I’m talking about going to see a player in par tic lar! It doesn’t and hasn’t mattered to me that Marino didn’t win a super bowl. That didn’t legitimize his status as a great player. What was important is that he made the game of football exciting for both the fans and the players he played with and against with his play.
I think a lot of that hate of the Celtics was because they WON ALL THE TIME!!! And Red would light up that damn cigar right on the bench and all the players’ on the bench would be having a good time partying and being nonchalant while the other team was getting their butt bruised. Oh, they were an arrogant bunch. They not only beat you, but humiliated you in the process! I hated to see them beat my team but loved to see them play because they reveled in their success openly and without constraint. They were the ultimate BAD ASSES!! I loved Red on RoundBall. This was the team, the location, and the era so it meant alot of things differently to different people. I’ve always tried to relate to teams and players as entities upon themselves and their association with any city was as a homebase. I couldn’t hate the Celtics because they played in Boston. I hated the Celtics because they kept whuppin up on my team! I concede I felt empathy for the black players who had to live in the Boston area and endure racism.
I remember taking my middle son, he was about ten at the time, to a Lakers/Celtics game at the Forum and asking him if he was excited to see Magic play in person and he told me, “Daddy I want to see Larry Bird play!” I was upset. In my own home yet!! I told him, “I should have left you at home and took your brother, he’s a Laker fan.” “You better hope the Lakers win if you want to get home.” Needless to say, all the way home he kept waving that damn green pennant in my face and I kept saying to myself, when is it going to end, when is it going to end!
That was a hilarious story by Phil about his son. I could really picture that.
Lots of great looks in this thread. Too busy to give it the 2 hours it deserves to read and respond properly. I just have a few
MODI, absolutely correct on that winner/loser bullshit.
Bill Russell wasn’t 9 rings better than Wilt, Lakers draft Moncrief instead of Magic and they both retire with 2 or 3 rings, The Bulls don’t draft Pippen and hire Phil and Jordan doesn’t have 6 rings and isn’t considered the almost consensus GOAT, Lakers have Pop instead of Phil and Shaq and Kobe each have about 6 or 7 rings right now,
Marc
No doubt the Celts were hands down better than the Lakers, The refs gace them game 2 to be sure, but we weren’t gonna win that series this year. The Celts D was TOO good and they played like men, we played, for the most part, like Boys.
Dwil
You were right several months ago in our conversation. The Lakers youth bit them in the ass. And you’re right as well that they didn’t run the triangle in the Finals, part of it is as you say, they weren’t confident enough, the other part was simply toughness. I’m short, but I’m big, been pumping iron for 20 years. Some big MF tries to bump me when I’m running my route, he’s gonna get a shoulder in his ribs, a few more times, he’s gonna stop getting in my way or he’s just one TOUGH SOB. The Celts got to our spots before we did and we were too pussified to make em pay.
We need some toughness.
I see Ms. Hill got suspended for some BS, Her comment was nonsensical and misplaced, but way short of offensive. Swim with arrogant assholes, get swallowed I guess.
Well KevDog:
That’s about the funniest shit I’ve read in a loooooong time. The Sainted Black Behavior Demonizer of ESPN gets gored for using Hitler’s name an anything other than a humble remembrance of slain Ashkenazim. You simply CANNOT make this stuff up!
If she’d said Stalin, she’d still be working. Rule #1: Don’t mention Adolf unless you’re on your knees with a tookis in your face. Rule #2: Never forget Rule #1. Never Forget.
BTW - I could certainly see how her remarks would be construed as offensive. By virtue of her decision to link a perceived arch-demon with a GAME — and rooting interests in that GAME — she trivializes the very mention of that archdemon. Coincidentally, the defenders of the special status for Hitler as the worst person in the history of humanity also do a disservice to their cause because he does not top the list in terms of lives lost. He has a place, but he’s not sitting atop the pyramid.
What’s worse - if Ms. Hill or others of her ilk were pressed to name the architects of Maafa (the kidnapping, enslavement and ritual violation of Africans) she’d be silent — and would have no ink (or clicks) to demonstrate her capacity to isolate and revile the enemies of her people.
Shit happens. Unless you don’t let it.
Back to MODI’s regularly scheduled program…apologies.
Shon:
I don’t know if Lamar Odom is done. I think it takes time for most players to understand playoff basketball. As far as I can remember, this is his first real taste of serious post-season basketball. He did not perform well, but he had moments. That list of players you rattled off are not equally versatile to Lamar Odom. I’m not arguing he’s better than all of them, but that he’s at least as versatile as each of them — and more than nearly all.
With that said — and the benefit of another year in this system, it will be interesting to see what he can do next year. A great many players in this league have built reputations with BRAINSMASHERS in the background.
The NBA is full of players with Coattail Courage. The Lakers don’t have a Shaq for inexperienced pros to affix their flagging testicles. There is no Larry Smith (remember him laying down the law in Houston?). No Rick Mahorn. Not even a Garnett. I’d keep Odom and look for a Testicular Totem for the hopes and dreams of the future. If the Lakers can’t find a totem, maybe they all go to a Sweat Lodge together and pray for enlarged nut sacks.
Back in the day, when the Lakers were getting roughed up by the Celtics (’84), they ALL came back more physical — and demonstrated they were willing to kiss ass first and ask questions later. The Sixers went the totemic route in 1983 with Moses Malone. The Dallas Mavericks never found a totem or a sweat lodge. In fact, they got gangstered by the Miami Heat Totem of 2006 (the Big Acquisition) and the Golden State Sweat Lodge of 2007 (T-shirts for everyone).
Especially Jessica Alba.
That was some weak shit they suspended her for. Damn, she got screwed. It’s funny what folks will crack down on, really funny. Oh well, now she knows. What I don’t understand is how she got suspended, when and editor had to allow that bullshit to get on the website. That’s an editing problem, not a writing problem. Pass the buck, pass the buck.
Temple - more great points.
I am harsh on Odom, but its not because I think he doesn’t have talent. I think he has top ten talent, but he just can not pull it all together. I liked him at first, but the last couple of years I have soured on him. I want to believe, but I just can’t anymore. The simplest way I can put it is what I have said on here before. It’s like, every time I finally think he is about to pull it all together, he disappears on us. I think Odom would be unbelievable on teams like the Suns and the Spurs because they wouldn’t necessarily need him to score. He would never need to take the big shot or score when it really counts. We need him to, but he can’t /won’t. And believe me, I’ve been watching him. One night, he’s the second coming of Magic and Pippen. Next time, you don’t even notice him on the floor.
His overall numbers are solid, but he’s a bit of a stat-padder (someone who scores meaningless buckets once a game has already been decided - see game 6 when he finally started scoring in the 4th quarter).
So, I agree with you that the guys I am throwing out aren’t as talented as
Odom. But, I think the might be better fits and more reliable. Also, I have serious questions about how well Odom can handle the three when Bynum comes back because he is an unreliable shooter and not much of a three point threat.
A guy like an Artest or a Stephen Jackson would be a Totem and then some (it’s not funny and I hate to make light of it, but damn. Them cats really ran into the stands are started throwing blows…in DETROIT! And Stephen Jackson personally bitched Dirk that entire series.)
I am praying that things work out the way it did after the Celtics beat down on Magic and crew.
Overall though, good stuff as usual man.
And Jessica Alba, well, she can wear pretty much any damn thing…
Jemele learns the lesson so many have to, don’t ever get too comfortable.
Great piece Modi.
You are absolutely on the money.
Its sickening sometimes how much corny shizzo the networks and the leagues shove down our throats.
Most of the fans watching never had rags to riches luck, most are still living tough!
So stop trying to sell us how these lucky millionaires succeeded despite their hardships. Stop trying to sell us how much heart and will the winners have.
Funny i was just thinking the same thing. If you win, you have heart, the desire.
If you lose, you’re a choker, not hungry…
Kev - always nice to hear from you:)
Temple re: Jessica Alba……..right on…………..
MODI- Bynum? Since when is Bynum all of a sudden the next Patrick Ewing? Bynum is a clumsy, slow, unathletic big man with a few raw post moves. He isn’t fluid nor quick. I SERIOUSLY disagree with your assessment that the Lakers will make the finals next season just because that doofus is coming back. Rest assured a frontline of Oden and Aldridge will have a lot to say. Couple them with Rudy Fernandez and Brandon Roy and next year it will be the Spurs and Blazers in the West finals if all parties stay relatively healthy. It’s going to be scary what the Blazers are going to look like for the next decade. All they need is a 6th man and you could punch them in for the West finals.
Blazers will be legit. But the WCF is too much to ask for a young team new to the playoffs next season. Do they simply leapfrog over Utah and New Orleans?
Oh, and Bynum isn’t any of those things you say. In fact, Bynum is already better than, say, Kendrick Perkins, and Mr Perkins was good enough to start for a championship team, of course. But Bynum is bigger, more talented offensively, and thus has a higher ceiling than somelike like Perkins.
Great comments Modi, Temple and Kevdog.
Hey Temple good looking up with that link you sent me on TSF. Might have to check that out even though I’ not an alumni memeber.
But anyway good stat on the teams with 7 footers. I totally forgot about that. However I heard that KG grew like 2 inches after his first 2 years in college so he is probably 7 foot. And we all know that Hakeem wasn’t 7 foot. tall probably 6′10.
My boy Kev dog the odds were against Kobe as Temple pointed out they don’t have that type of big man. I still believe that they need odom to do all the little things. Every team needs a player like that.
But in the modern day only zeke and MJ are the only dominate wing players who have won a title with out a big man that didn’t dominate offensively and/or defensively in the paint.
But those teams did play in your face mean nasty defense. This is where the lakers have to get better. He!! get artest or steven jackson. Somebody who will D up and help Kobe on the defensive end. Cause there is no way he can guard everyone.
Oh and when the Garnett trade was done I said not only would they win this year but they would win another ring next year or the year after.
SO hopefully the laker and celtics play in the finals 2 more years. Maybe the lakers win next year and the celtics win the next year. The league needs this and so do fans like me.
Anyway I got the lakers and celtics playing next year.
Oh and the trailblazers are 2 or 3 years away from the finals.
THELASTPOET- I’m old enough to remember Bill Cartwright and Brad Daugherty in their primes and this kid is nowhere near as talented as either. The boy has no vertical. He has no speed. He is not strong. His post moves are amateurish. What’s worse about him is how awkward and clumsy he is on the court. What are you guys watching?
You want to see a powerful center with speed, finesse and hops? Take a look at Greg Oden, my friend. That’s a center. And when it’s all said and done, Oden’s offense will dwarf that of Bynum, perhaps as soon as next year.
Greg Oden is talented enough on defense to turn around a team immediately. The Blazers have speed, shooting and now will have rebounding and defense from the baseline. Watch for the Blazers to get right around all the Western conference teams next year.
– Phil, funny family story indeed. To me the Marino/Elway comparison is the most interesting. Terrel Davis carried John Elway and and the Bronco on his back during Elway’s final two years at a point where Elway was no longer the same player he used to be. But those two years changed everything for his long-term legacy as “a winner”. Just imagine what Marino might have done with a Terrel davis along side him
– KD, about Wilt/Russell and those rings. Consider this, about 4 times that the Celts eliminated Wilt-led teams from the playoffs it was by a razor-thin margin in Game 7. Now consider the teammate talent that that Russell had around him vs. Wilt and the gap in those games. And consider this: Wilt AVERAGED 37 points per game against Russell for his career. And russel gets the best defensive center tag. This is bullshit. It is not even close when comparing their talent. Not even close. To me Wilt is easily the best player to ever play this game — but he was always disliked by the media.
– Temple: “If she’d said Stalin, she’d still be working.”… probably true. And you are right that hitler has cornered the market on worst leaders. I suspect that his place will be soften in 100 years and references to him will be more acceptable. The thing is that there are many people who are still alive who escaped those concentration camps and many children who have had the horrors passed down to them. …I’m pretty sure that Attila the Hun could give Hitler a run for his money on the whole evil man thing, but more than a few years have passed which makes him acceptable for cocktail party references.
– Jimmy, we definitely disagree on Bynum though I am certainly not claiming Ewing status. But the man was coming into his own right at the time he went down. He will never have to be a #1 like Oden. But I believe that he can ascend to Kobe’s #2 while permanentlyshifting Gasol to his more comfortable PF position. Time will tell and I believe that i am right.
– shon - what is disappointing about Odom is that he has all the talent in the world and has never really improved that much during his career. nothing is worse than undeveloped talent (see Derrick Coleman)
– thanks ice
MODI - I was thinking the same thing about the Elway/Marino comparison. Elway is thought of to be the ultimate winner now, and he could never actually win the big game without Terrel Davis. Marino never had a running back of that caliber. I think he may have had one or two seasons where there was a running back behind him that gained 1,000+ yards.
- Ouch about Odom. The Derrick Coleman, part. But I have to admit, it’s true. I used to like DC. He’d show flashes of brilliance, then the next thing you know, he disappears. One thing I always had to say about the man, he knew how to come through in a contract year. Odom has just never been able to put it all together. I think the best time he ever had was that year in Miami where he, Wade, and Butler, willed them past the first round. Kwame Brown, take some lessons from DC, and at least be good in a contract year.
I guess if you’re jewish then Hitler is just supposed to be a figment of your imagination
kos, I was NOT comparing Odom to DC. I wouldn’t do that to the guy. I was only using DC as the posterchild for wasted and undeveloped talent.
Boney, I don’t think that myself nor anyone else was suggesting that.
I don’t get all the Odom blame. I’m trying to enjoy a summer off the net but Odom-bashers keeping pulling me back in.
MODI- I agree with your take on Bynum. I’d like to add that its not how good of an individual player Bynum is that make LA better. Its the fact that Bynum is fundamentally solid now, after having been coached by the great Kareem. I don’t see Bynum as being clumsy. He may not be “Stro-Show” athletic and the picture of grace in his 7 foot frame, but the kid can ball. He plays the big man game. He’s no KG on the wing shooting jumpers or Gasol on the elbow stroking his slo-mo J. The kid gets in the post, with his back to the basket, and goes through his moves. Solid kid.
The reason I think Bynum was missed was because he puts everyone else in their proper positions. A lot like Charlotte before the Nazr Mohammed trade, LA without Bynum negates the versatility in the Gasol’s, Odom’s and Kobe’s. The strength in having the “too soft” players like Gasol and Odom is that you can run them against another position beside their own to take advantage of matchups. Against the C’s, without Bynum, they were all forced to play BIGGER.
Gasol did well against KG but didn’t have enough left to help on D, especially against guard penetration. Odom did well on the perimeter defending the lane but was matched up against Perkins on some plays. Gasol and Odom both put on rebounding numbers but they still let the C’s get too many offensive rebounds.
So with Bynum in the lineup, everyone goes to the natural - and more favorable - position. Odom at the SF is a beast. There’s no one outside of Artest and Tay who match up well against him. Its a luxury to have him able to help out against the SG or PF on D. Gasol at the PF is solid with scoring, blocks and rebounding…again, he can help guard the periphery positions on D.
Turiaf, Mbanga, Mihm…useless in the Finals. They were missing a big. Missing Bynum against PJ Brown, Perkins, KG, Powe. That’s not to mention how Bynum in the post would take that much more pressure off Kobe on the perimeter. I’m glad Kobe likes the make up of the roster cuz I think they have a shot to prove that this year was no fluke. But it goes to show how much luck has to do with winning.
LA shouldn’t have given it up as easy as they did…but to me, it doesn’t mean they has a ton of work to do with their roster. They were missing their starting C who was having a breakout year. With Bynum in the lineup, in my opinion, LA has the advantage at every position from C to SG…except PG. I like Rondo a lot. i’m looking forward to watching that kid grow. He’s a gem.
LA has the advantage at every position from C to SG…
You’re taking the Laker forwards over Pierce and Garnett?? That’s the kind of thinking that led many folks to pick the Lakers to win this year…….
Jimmy, you’re just completely wrong about Bynum. These video completely blows everything you said about him out of the water. Everything you said he can’t do or doesn’t have is proved to be complete bunk in these few minutes. What a complete tool.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sGywI2ijZ_c&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5_gH72uDLkg&feature=related
“You’re taking the Laker forwards over Pierce and Garnett??”
Odom on Pierce, with both Gasol and Bynum behind him plugging up the middle…?
Yes. I’d take that.
It’s still a team game…with team D. Odom has the height and weight to play tight on the perimeter against Pierce…and if he has 2 shot blockers behind him to guard the paint…he can gamble more often…as opposed to Raddy and Vujacic being the ones gambling. Losing Bynum in the paint for at least 30 minutes means you’re using Odom in the paint instead of the perimeter. And, for me, Odom at PF- in the paint instead of the perimeter- is a disadvantage. Jamison, to me, plays more of a “soft” game than Odom. Especially on D. Especially in the paint.
They didn’t need Odom to score more. They needed a big man to put pressure on the C’s in the paint. Gasol tried, but that’s not his game. The C’s sag away from the Lakers and concentrated on Kobe. Everyone had their eyes on Kobe when he had the ball. With Bynum out and the Center spot being one of the weaker positions for the Celts, that’s an advantage the Lakers never had a chance to utilize. Chalk that up to luck.
Its not to say that Bynum is a superstar but only that he helps balance out a team who’s greatest asset is the versatility of it’s Mid 3 (Pau, Odom and Kobe). Take out Bynum, and you’ve essentially forced the Mid 3 into guarding BIGGER positions (when their advantages are the ability to guard a smaller position).
I mean, think about it. They went to the Finals with Pau at the 5. Pau’s no 5, yet, they managed to smash the Nugs and Spurs…two very different teams, one the defending champs. I’m not saying Bynum would have guaranteed a victory against the C’s…but damn, the Finals would have been way better contested. Because the C’s have the likes of KG, Pierce and Allen (Boston’s Big Mid 3)…you needed Bynum. Ask Jax if he would have preferred Gasol on KG, Odom on Pierce and Kobe on Allen throughout the series. All he has to worry about then is matching Rondo’s energy, Perkin’s toughness and managing foul trouble. Losing Bynum made the Laker’s Center spot a glaring weakness.
In hindsight, after watching the C’s dismantle Kobe, its obvious.
MODI
I’m not jewish, but if David Duke’s name was in that statement by Jemele would it have been any different?
Back to the sports talk,
Had Bynum been in the paint, the Lakers would have had a better shot of winning the series. Sure, Perkins is tough in the paint to score on if you’re soft like Gasol or Odom, but to put Bynum on the block on him would’ve been totally different.
They could’ve put KG on Bynum, but Gasol would’ve been able to beat Perk in the post knowing that there was another option to go to.
The keys to this series was the ability of Pierce to find the role players in positions for them to succeed. I’m not a fan of Pierce, KG or Ray Allen. I think any “superstar” that begs for a trade after signing a near max or max deal that hamstrings a franchise is selfish (not that they don’t deserve the money)… but let me say this, Doc was able to keep the plates spinning long enough during the season. Had a single plate crashed to the floor, they all would’ve crashed and Doc would be gone along with Ainge (although Ainge might’ve been demoted to coach, to coach the mess he created).
There is some seeeeeeerious basketball talk going on RIGHT HERE!!
Damn…y’all are representin’.
One love to all who took a moment to post from the heart. Big up to MODI for the post that incited this riot!!!!
If I don’t post over the next few - have a great weekend all.
I don’t agree with that “Wilt was way better than Russell” talk. Russell always said that his game was about making his team better and not putting up big numbers, and his game and his rings spoke for itself. Plus that “he had better teammates” argument doesn’t count much for me because your players or team are only “good” if they win titles. Remember two weeks ago when the Lakers team from 1 to 15 was “better” than the Celtics? My my that changed fast.
And about the Lakers, if they think Bynum is the only piece they were missing they better make damn sure because they’d be about to go all in on that. If they come up short again then Kobe is another year older, a lot more pissed off, and Gasol and Odom’s trade value would probably be diminished even more. So they need to keep it real with themselves and my advice would be to make a trade.
BARF, agreed on Bynum all the way around
T3, thanks and have a good weekend. It is truly the knowledge of the commenters that make this site what it is.
motown, russell did a great job with the C’s but there is not a lot of evidence that he could take over a game scoring wise if he had lesser teammates. I mean, do you believe that if Wilt had those celtic teammates that he would have lost any series in the 60’s?
Ironically the best team in the ’60s is Wilt’s 66-67 Sixers…
KEVDOG- Nothing like the YOUTUBE generation trying to decipher talent by watching a video. Bynum is shown scoring and dunking against the soft frontlines of the Clippers and Bucks. Eddy Curry does the same against those guys. Bynum is 7 feet tall. All 7 footers dunk. The difference here is Bynum isn’t dunking on anyone his height in the paint.
JImmy, nothing like people who don’t know who they’re dealing with to make ridiculous assumptions. And nothing like people who didn’t watch every play Bynum made last year to make ridiculous claims.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zlu2ocMVowU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muKV4cKq1_g&NR=1http://youtube.com/watch?v=ro4eDjmSIzYhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=uzZf5OPzM7chttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMltKsoDwe8&NR=1
Like I said Jimmy, you look like a damn fool in this argument. Check out that last dunk, see how damn high boy gets, check out the moves he makes, the footwork, every single thing you said he can’t do he does do and then you completely try to change the subject and deflect from how wrong you were proved. That’s simply pathetic.
Jimmy says
“Nothing like the YOUTUBE generation trying to decipher talent by watching a video. Bynum is shown scoring and dunking against the soft frontlines of the Clippers and Bucks. Eddy Curry does the same against those guys. Bynum is 7 feet tall. All 7 footers dunk. The difference here is Bynum isn’t dunking on anyone his height in the paint.”
Earlier Jimmy wrote this
“The boy has no vertical. He has no speed. He is not strong. His post moves are amateurish. What’s worse about him is how awkward and clumsy he is on the court.”
You see this is the absolute height of intellectual sophistry. You posted the attributes you mistakenly think Bynum lacks and I post vids that completely bust your position, then you just change up your argument entirely.
Fact is that Bynum’s footwork is rapidly improving as the vids I posted proved, he has amazing balance for someone his height and simply amazing hands. He moves extremely well without the ball and as to that lack of vertical
Vertical THIS fool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMltKsoDwe8&NR=1
KEVDOG- You can’t be over 21..lmfao. Bynum is over 7 feet tall. At his height it doesn’t take much to glide FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING PAINT for a dunk. Big men who had hops at his height were guys like KG, EWING, D-ROB, SHAQ…Those are big men who could get up. Athletically, Bynum is a CLUMSY kid with little footwork and few moves to go to. In an era where there are no talented post big men, a guy like Bynum is SEVERELY overrated.
He doesn’t have athleticism.
He doesn’t have speed.
He doesn’t have moves
He isn’t strong.
If the boy was that physically imposing, athletically gifted, we would be seeing Patrick Ewing results. We would be seeing Dwight Howard results. Bynum is INCAPABLE because HE AINT THAT FUCKING SKILLED.
He is EXACTLY what I stated. Anyone who thinks THAT’S going to be a dominant big man in the NBA like, Hakeem, Ewing, Jabbar, or even Robert Parrish etc etc etc is out of his fucking mind…….
Be happy if turns out like Bill Cartwright or James Edwards.
LMFAO @ delusional Laker fans. Must be hitting the beer bottles after the historic WHORING they got in game 6…lol
Stop hating on Bynum, the kid is just two years removed from high school. Didn’t play much his first year because he wasn’t NBA ready. He has responded well to coaching and you could see his potential being brought out with every game he played this past season. The cat can flat out PLAY!!! Because he’s playing on a team that doesn’t have to rely on his scoring a lot to win, Bynum can concentrate on the defensive end where he was exceling and get his points off putbacks and lobs. Not having to carry a heavy load keeps him from tightening up. He moves very well on the court, really looks comfortable out there.
On the other hand Oden. This is a dude who should have stayed in school at least one more year. Being injured thru-out most of the season (OSU) limited his developement. Plus he didn’t play that many minutes. Him missing his rookie season could have been a blessing in disguise for him. Giving him a chance to adjust to the NBA grind and miss all the pressure put on a #1 pick. I’m way not impress with his play coming out of college. Hopefully this time off, weight training and playing with the big boys will improve his play when the whistle blows. I’m just not impress with the big build up that’s been given him and then seeing him play. He reminds me of Patrick Ewing while at Georgetown.
Odom on Pierce. Somebody’s smoking crack!!!!
If you didn’t see the the NBA playoffs, you didn’t see the coming out party of the second best player in basketball. Other than Lebron James, no player showed up to play better than Paul Pierce. I haven’t had the opportunity to see him play much since he left Kansas and I wish I had. He’s an old school baller with plenty of game. I didn’t know it. His match-up with King James was a classic for the times. Reminds me of Bernard King and how he accepted challenges on the court. I’m glad he got the real MVP (the playoffs baby) and not that imposter on the Lakers. Besides as for the regular season MVP, nobody can tell me that some other player other than Lebron James was more valuable to their team.
Motown-
The Boston Celtics were the gold standard as teams go in the 60’s. Wilt Chamberlin was the gold standard for players. The Celtics had a lock on team play and Red was not above borrowing from the Globetrotters’ playbook to help win games. He looked for and got the players who fit best into his system. The year before ‘66-’67 the Celts got by the 76ers in the playoffs. Wilt can back the next year dedicated to changing his game up to get his teammates more involved in the offense, spreading the scoring around and being more of a defensive force (a la Bill Russell) on the other end.
That ‘66 -’67 season, Wilt led his team (and the NBA) in rebounding and assists and also led his team in scoring. No other center has led the NBA in total assists.
The Celtics rebounded and won the next two championships with Russell at the helm and upgrading as they went along, the Celtics WON ten out of eleven championships in that span. Most of those years the Eastern division crown was decided by Philly and Boston.
Phil says: “Besides as for the regular season MVP, nobody can tell me that some other player other than Lebron James was more valuable to their team.”
Completely agree. And the Celts had MUCH more difficulty with LeBron than they did with Kobe - despite the fact that Kobe’s support cast is far better than LeBron’s.
(I hear KevDog reaching for his defibrillator now…:))
Marc and Phil
Shit, that’s crazy talk, pure and simple.
Lebron did cause more problems. Homie is freaking huge. Even if you play great team defense, when you have one player who is an athletic abomination that defense can only do so much. Ask the Pistons. If Lebron had Kobe’s jumper, the Celtics would be sitting at home with KG being labeled a loser another summer. Seriously.
Jimmy, Cartwright has rings…Ewing doesn’t. And I’m a Knicks fan who swears he has a bit of Pat’s blood coursing through his veins.
Bynum’s a beast. Not Shaq-beast…but last I looked…Shaq…Hakeem…Pat…were special players. Saying a young Center in this league isn’t like one of them is no insult or slight. Kareem, in my opinion, was in a different class than Ewing. He has the rings and things to prove it. Kareem has coached Bynum and the kid responded with a breakout year this year. Over-rated or not he has shown that he is coachable and is still…what…20 yrs old?
My comment said nothing about Bynum “dominating” in the paint because Bynum did not NEED to dominate. The Lakers just needed to have a bigger body than Gasol and Odom on Perkins at times. Odom needed to play on the perimeter more. He needed to be used to HELP in the interior…not guard the interior as a responsibility. He had to guard the bigger positions because they had no STARTING center.
Funny, the Lakers had enough to get through the West…and even smack the defending champs. They were not a failing squad. They went something like 35-9 after trading for Gasol, WITHOUT BYNUM. I’m only pointing out that, against the C’s, they ran into the ONE team where Bynum was necessary. Again, I’m not saying they would have dominated the C’s with Bynum…but I think they would have won. Without Bynum, LA’s Big 3 were playing out of position.
Not an excuse…just the truth. But you didn’t hear them complaining about it or using it as a crutch for their losing. But that’s what blogs are about, right? Obsessive fans relentlessly dissecting games.
BE A REAL FAN- Uh, I surely hope you don’t think Cartwright was a better player than Ewing because he rode Jordan’s dick to those titles. If you do, you deserve to get BANNED from this site.
Like I said before, Bynum is NOTHING to write home to mom about. The guy will NEVER be the type of center that carries teams into the playoffs. He isn’t the defender people think he is. He will NEVER be the offensive threat true championship centers like Hakeem, Jabbar, Moses, D-Rob, Duncan were. Enough with this insanity…LOL
Only a LAKER fan can hype up an average player like Bynum. Give me a fucking break, already! LMFAO
pfft.
Matter of fact, Bynum won’t have the offensive game Kevin Duckworth had.