Tainted Legacy: Floyd Mayweather Jr. Quits Boxing
June 7, 2008
An Open Letter to Floyd Mayweather:
Floyd, what if Sugar Ray Leonard never fought Roberto Duran? What if Hagler never risked his belt against Tommy Hearns? What if all of these four fighters never squared off with one another in the 1980’s? …It would never happen. It could never happen. Because championship fighters at the highest level MUST challenge themselves against the very best. It’s in their DNA. But today you announced your retirement from boxing without fighting the only man that true boxing fans have wanted to see you fight: Miguel Cotto.
I read what you said yesterday: “It is with a heavy heart that I write you this message today… I have decided to permanently retire from boxing. This decision was not an easy one for me to make as boxing is all I have done since I was a child. However, these past few years have been extremely difficult for me to find the desire and joy to continue in the sport. …”I have said numerous times and after several of my fights over the past two years that I might not fight again. At the same time, I loved competing and winning and also wanted to continue my career for the fans, knowing they were there for me and enjoyed watching me fight. However, after many sleepless nights and intense soul-searching I realized I could no longer base my decision on anything but my own personal happiness, which I no longer could find. So I have finally made up my mind, spoken to my family, particularly my mother, and made my decision.”
Floyd, as a person, I am truly happy for your happiness and peace. Boxing is no sport for the half-hearted and if you are not into it, then you shouldn’t fight. Meanwhile, please excuse me while I wipe egg off of my face. I’ve written about the joy of watching your boxing brilliance and genius. I’ve praised your defense and artistry. I’ve defended you vigorously in person and in comment sections more times than I could count. But if today’s announcement is anything more than a well-calculated publicity ploy, then I’ve been punk’d. Bigtime…. And many more of your supporters have as well. For over five years, you have not fought any top contenders. You picked fights that were low-risk, but high reward (championship belt/big money). When critics said that you were ducking and dodging all the top dogs – your tactics were defended as driving up the fight prices. I told the critics that a Cotto fight was just a matter of time and money — that you were just as shrewd and savvy a businessman as you are a fighter.
Unfortunately, your retirement minus the Cotto fight now puts your entire career — or at least your last five years — into question. It makes us believe that your first close fight with Jose Luis Castillo had a long-term effect on your future opponent selections. You obtained your junior welterweight, and subsequent welterweight belts over paper champions named Arturo Gatti, Zab Judah, and Carlos Baldomir. And while having the nerve to call the promotion of the Baldomir fight “Pretty Risky”, you bypassed far superior fighters like Cotto, Sugar Shane Mosely, and Antonio Margarito — not to mention Carlos Quintana and Paul Williams. You then went the payday route by fighting a past-his-prime Oscar and an easy-pickins Ricky Hatton.
And while you were painted a coward by many, I defended your actions as forgivable — as long as the Cotto match eventually came to silence your naysayers. But now I am forced to become one of them. Your last five years have amounted to the Lakers winning their first round series against the Denver Nuggets and declaring themselves world champions despite never facing the Jazz, the Spurs, or the Celtics. …only in boxing…
I would say that you don’t care about your boxing legacy, but the great irony is that you DO care deeply about it — even more than money. You would rather NOT have $40 million more than risk it (combined for an Oscar rematch and then Cotto match). Or is it your health that you are afraid of risking? If so, I don’t begrudge any boxer who retires in their prime. I know that you have brittle hands and should be certain that you can pick up your children and, eventually, grand children without pain. That is a personal choice that no non-boxer could judge. But then why fight a collection of tomato cans the last five years instead of the top talent before you hang ‘em up. Or were these opponents also part of your “health care plan”. If so, then fine. The more power to you, and enjoy your money. But in turn, immediately retract this blasphemous statement you made last year:
“I respect what [Sugar Ray] Robinson and Ali did for the sport. But I am the greatest, and this is my time.” … “I can quit today and be known as the best fighter that ever lived.”
No you can’t Floyd. Not even close. You can’t avoid your cake, and eat it too! Jake Lamotta was the closest thing to Miguel Cotto back then and Ray fought him six times. A past his prime Ali defeated Joe Frazier and George Foreman. Lesser fighters than you such as De La Hoya have gained respect by always fighting the top opponents. He may have lost two close fights to Shane, but at least he fought him. While you are a superior fighter than Oscar, he remains a champion. In fact, there is very little historic precedence where the proclaimed greatest fighter of their era has avoided their most worthy contemporaries. Not only that. Beyond your lightweight years, you can’t even claim the last few welterweight years – which now officially belong to Miguel.
Who knows, perhaps you are smarter than 99% of the champion boxers before you. After all, look how Ali and Ray ended up… So go on, keep your health — you deserve it. Keep your money — you’ve earned it. Your boxing legacy as one of the greatest ever? — you’ve burned it.
—————————
Note to frequent commenter Jimmy: (Unless a Floyd ploy) You were right. I was wrong. Now please excuse me while I stuff my face with another slice of humble pie.
Comments
88 Responses to “Tainted Legacy: Floyd Mayweather Jr. Quits Boxing”
Got something to say?
well i guess he should back out know before he loses his belt this time
We told you MODI. Floyd was never a fighter. He was a boxer.
The difference is that Floyd worked on the assumption that he could always fight just who he wanted to, and not who the best were. A fighter knows his relative worth as the best is based on beating the best. A boxer never cares.
A fighter is Manny Pacquaio, who fought Barrera, Morales, and Marquez twice, three times, and twice respectively. A boxer is Mayweather, who fought a blown-up Ricky Hatton and a past-his-prime Oscar De La Hoya.
Maybe now we’ll start noticing the guys who bust it.
“Your last five years have amounted to the Lakers winning their first round series against the Denver Nuggets and declaring themselves world champions despite never facing the Jazz, the Spurs, or the Celtics. …only in boxing…”
Harsh truth right there …
I understand his Floyd’s logic, but his calculations are definitly leave him with a flawed legacy
Good stuff MODI. All that HAD to be said. I got some egg to wipe off myself. This took me by surprise…to say the least.
Mayweather joining the UFC? That’s the rumor going around before Dana White’s big announcement…
BARF, what’s up. great to hear from you.
Boney, do you have any links to that rumor? I just don’t see it… no way… but what do i know about Floyd these days…
there is a part of me, a small part, that wants, no NEEDS, to see Floyd Mayweather Jr’s little cocky shell get cracked if he does step into the ring and across the cage is Urijah Faber. Urijah might make him tap in the first round. That dude is BAD.
But i don’t think he’ll do it. He’ll probably do a whole bunch of other things in his life. He might end up doing a reality show or wrestling as a career.
MODI- The retirement is no shock. Avoid Gayfeather is either waiting for Cotto to have 2 fights that soften him up so he can come in and cherrypick him, or he doesn’t want to fight him period. Regardless what road Avoid takes, he was nothing more than a SHAM. AN AMERICAN BOXING MEDIA CREATION VIA HBO. Avoid is no fighter. He is a showman/actor fighting guys who aren’t a true threat to him. His last REAL FIGHT was against Castillo and it was right there where the cherrypicking began.
It’s pretty COMICAL how all the Gayfeather defenders can’t be found. What can you say? For YEARS, Avoid has made excuses for not fighting Cotto. Those of us who know boxing, know Cotto would apply a physical beating to Avoid. I’m even one who thinks Avoid can get on his horse and run from Cotto most of the fight and win a decision, albeit there will be an outcry from the fans. What Avoid would face is a beating to the body that he wants no part of. When Avoid was BEGGING for money fighting guys like Oscar and Hatton, he REFUSES his biggest payday years earlier when he DUCKED Margarito and the 8 million buck ticket that fight would have come with. That 8 million would have represented Avoid’s biggest paycheck to date. To nobody’s surprise, Avoid wanted no part of the Tijuana Tornado. I think the FUNNIEST of all ducks was Avoid ducking Cotto when they were both Jr Welterweights. Avoid’s team said Cotto wasn’t ready and the fight wouldn’t make much money, so he didn’t think the fight would make sense. Who does Avoid immediately decide to fight? He fights Henry Bruseles, who just conveniently happens to be Cotto’s sparring partner..lol.
Avoid’s greatest victory is even tainted. He has ridden his victory over Diego Corrales as something spectacular, but Corrales was convicted of spousal abuse and was going to jail a few weeks after the fight. Corrales’ head was nowhere near being into the fight. Meanwhile, HBO continued to cover up the first of many set up fights Avoid has throughout his career. It’s really amazing how the media can confuse those who aren’t privy to true information.
MODI,
I’ll probably add more later, because while I understand the nerve this retirement touches, I think you may have let your passions run a little amok here and the non-stop stream of Floyd hating to wear you down. There is no need to feel ‘betrayed’.
But for now I’ll just say this: If PBF’s heart ain’t in it, then just like Lennox, he’s making the right call. As a fan of the sport, there’s nothing worse than watching a guy trying to halfheartedly fake his way through a fight and then realizing he doesn’t want to be there (see Tyson/McBride or Freitas/Diaz for reference).
He’s been hinting at this retirement thing for a while, and I wish him all the success in his future endeavors and thank him for the entertainment he brought me as a fan. As someone who attended the Corrales match, I have never seen a greater display of boxing skill and speed.
With that said, I still maintain that you will get your Cotto/PBF megafight in ‘09. PBF has long stated that he would take a break in ‘08. So this retirement No surprise there. And I think once PBF realizes that America doesn’t care about retired boxers (headlines wise), that fire will come back. When the magazines and talk shows stop calling, the passion will return.
My prediction, you’ll get a big, winnable ‘tuneup’ fight (Hatton II in Wembley??; a blown up Malignaggi in NJ/NY ?? ) and then your megamatch. And I still think Floyd handles Cotto — fairly easily.
The fight will happen. Keep the faith.
Good piece Modi.
Smart man and good for him. He could have taken the DLH fight and made a boat load of cash but his heart wasnt in it. He could have hung around for Cotto or Margartio or Williams or Quintana but he would have had to fight them all to “earn” the respect of being the best ever. If we would have lost to anyone of them then he would be a washed up bum.
Go out on top. In boxing you are only measured against your last fight. Its a very unforgiving sport.
Oh, and for all the Floyd haters out there, please get a grip on yourselves.
Nas had it right: “Y’all —— deal with emotions like bitches.”
The whole ‘FRAUD’ and ‘GAYFEATHER’ thing is so juvenile. And as fans, you should know by now that ‘not fighting’ someone does not equal ‘ducking’ someone.
If y’all don’t like Floyd, that’s cool with me. But y’all only sound like 12 year old girls by pushing these already discredited ‘ducking’ memes and claiming the PBF is not a ‘real fighter’.
Quit hatin, get money, and stay true.
Forgot to add to my first post: expect a Cotto/DLH fight in late 08/early 09 as a prelude to the Cotto/PBF fight, with Golden Boy Promotions buying himself into the promotion of PBF/Cotto.
Okay, Sweet, i have one thing to ask of you: Really?
Floyd is a real fighter when his last 5 opponents have been Arturo Gatti (this generation’s Vinny Paz), Carlos Baldomir (Tomato Can), Zab Judah (more fragile mentally than Vince Carter), Oscar De La Hoya (past-his-prime), and a blown-up Ricky Hatton. Meanwhile Manny Pacquiao fought in his last 5 Osciar Larios, Erik Morales, Jorge Solis, Marco Antonio Barrera, and Juan Manuel Marquez. He’s also a real fighter when he has steadfastly avoided top competition, and acted like we owe him the pleasure of our money when he fights the Baldomirs, and the Judahs, and a friggin REMATCH with De La Hoya. He hasn’t fought a welterweight in the Ring’s top 10 YET.
Sweet… next time know that to be the best in boxing you have to be willing to fight the best. And Floyd has not, as of this moment, shown that he is. He’s just Roy Jones Jr. with more mink coats.
– Jimmy, if Floyd comes out of retirement next year to fight Cotto next year and convincingly beats him, then his legacy will be restored in my mind, and even you would have to agree that PBF is no sham.
– SJ, “Betrayed” is the correct word. But not me personally — he has betrayed the sport of boxing itself. There is no greater match in the entire sport than a fight with Cotto. Now if he is a businessman, then fine. But he has forfeited his place amongst “greatest fighter” discussions because of this. I know of no other great champion at his level in almost any weight class who went this route. If he stays retired — I know of no other reasonable interpretation of “not fighting” Cotto than “ducking”. You know that I used to be on your side here… …anyway, i hope that your prediction of a Floyd comeback is right… he could very likely miss the spotlight
– AGS, I don’t think Floyd would have to beat all the top guys to gain respect — just Cotto since he is the best of the lot.
– Okori, great contrast with a guy like Pacquiao. It really says it all. However, I wouldn’t put Roy Jones in the same category. Roy suffered from lack of quality opponents which is not his fault. And in his prime Roy whooped his opponents so convincingly that it was ridiculous. There were no fights equivalent to Floyd’s Castillo fight or even the first half of the Judah fight. By the time Roy lost, he was no longer the same fighter as he was completely reliant on his speed. …And Roy is still the only guy to have convincingly beaten Bernard Hopkins.
Okori,
Let’s see how easy it is to play that game:
Manny Pacquiao’s last 5 fights:
Oscar Larios - Moving up in weight AND coming off a loss to Vazquez
Erik Morales - Coming off TWO losses, one a KO (Pac) and the other being
DOMINATED by Zahir Raheem. SHOT.
Jorge Solis - Moving up in weight and not in Pacman’s class. Decent kid better known for who his brother is.
Marco Antonio Barrera - Coming off a loss to and showing signs of obvious deterioration against a mediocre Rocky Jaurez. All but done as a top level fighter. Probably SHOT.
Juan Manuel Marquez - No complaint from me
To sum up. 2 of Pac’s last 5 fights were against guys coming up in weight, like a ‘blown-up’ Hatton. 3 of the 5 were against guys coming off of losses. And it is easily argued that Barrera, Morales, and Larios were all ‘past-their-prime’, just like DLH. And lastly, 3 of the 5 were against guys he has already fought. And it is debateable of how huge the clamoring really was for the Barrera and Morales fights, as Pac had pretty much destroyed both guys.
Now, see how easy it is to pick at ANY fighter’s resume.
BTW, comparing someones career to Roy Jones, probably the most skilled fighter of our generation and a former MW who won a HW championship, hardly counts as a legit diss. Try again.
ok. first off: Barrera beat Juarez in their first fight I believe, and then beat him in the rematch. so he was hardly shot when he fought Pacquiao in their rematch. and as far as Morales went it was the rubber match between the two (Morales won the first by decision, and lost the second by knockout). So those 2 fights are not nearly as bad as you make them sound.
and JMM is a far better fighter than pretty much any fighter Floyd’s ever fought.
See here is what Floyd did that was a betrayal to boxing fans like me: He wants to be considered an all-time great, better than the best pound-for-pound fighter ever. Forgetting the disgusting insult inherent in that statement the best ever Sugar Ray cleaned out welterweight, fought anyone with a claim to his title, and then moved up to middleweight and did the same thing. Floyd? He fought Carlos Baldomir.
and the Sugar Ray I meant here was Robinson, not Leonard.
Although Leonard (who Floyd has made fun of) also showed himself to be much more of a true fighter than Floyd was. He stopped Wilfred Benitez which almost no one did, beat Hearns in a great back-and-forth fight, and made Roberto Duran quit. Floyd? He fought the champions of the weight divisions above his, and below his while avoiding anyone from the deepest division in boxing. Could he have fought Shane Mosley? Is that too much to ask?
SWEET JONES- Shut up, man. Stop your crying. It’s not my fault you’re a patriotic fight fan who doesn’t have the intelligence to realize AVOID GAYFEATHER is nothing more than a cherrypicking PUSSY. He is a DETRIMENT to boxing and to true fight fans that want to see the best fight the best. He doesn’t fight the best. THAT’S THE BOTTOM LINE. THAT’S why I dislike him. It’s fine to be about the money, but it’s BULLSHIT to be AFRAID of losing. He isn’t retiring because he has had a string of tough fights. Give me a fucking break. And then this DOUCHEBAG considers himself the best fighter of all-time. My only regret is that Felix “Tito” Trinidad isn’t 26 years old, so he can put GAYFEATHER into a hospital bed like he did Campas, Vargas, Mayorga, Thiam, Reid, Joppy, and Whitaker. He is retiring because NOW he has nothing left but guys who can lay a BEATING on him. He aint fighting Oscar because he “isn’t into fighting” but rather the fight isn’t going to sell. NOBODY is going to pay to see that JOKE of a fight. The fight belongs on ESPN, which is where an AVERAGE Welterweight like AVOID GAYFEATHER belongs. Matter of fact, that’s where he would be if it wasn’t for guys like Oscar and Hatton and Gatti who were responsible for the gates in those fights.
I will GUARANTEE you one thing IF GAYFEATHER decides to fight Miguel. Miguel is going to leave Avoid a bloody mess over the course of 12 rounds. Avoid will take one hell of a beating. Guys who fight Cotto get physically beat up. Avoid is NO DIFFERENT! Avoid might win a decision, but he will have pieces of DNA splattered all over the ring after Miguel is done with him.
MODI- LMFAO @ SWEET trying to discredit Manny Pacquiao’s true Hall of Fame career….Unbelievable, man! Only in the BIASED eyes of an AVOID GAYFEATHER nuthugger.
I still say AVOID is the biggest SHAM boxing has seen over the last 5 years. His career is a joke. I have NO RESPECT for a guy who has not fought the Top 3 contenders of the 140, 147 and 154 weight classes. His belts at 140,147 and 154 are SHAMS. So we are all to believe the toughest fight he has had since 2003 will be the Miguel Cotto fight in 2009? That’s a real career? Good Christ! 6 years of SCAM FIGHTS. Has there ever been any one boxer who FRAUDED fight fans like this dude? What’s more FRIGHTENING is how fans are just now coming to the realization that this man has been tricking the public for years.
GOOD RIDDANCE. BOXING IS BETTER WITHOUT YOU!
Thank you Jimmy for predictably offering yourself up as Exhibit A of exactly what I was talking about.
Once again, Nas had it right: “Y’all —— deal with emotions like bitches.”
It’s really sad the scorned-lover level of obsession you have with Floyd. What’s wrong, Derrty? PBF didn’t ‘make it rain’ on you one night in the club? Did he snatch a girl from you or something? Turned you down for an autograph?
For real, man, get that checked. It makes no sense for a so-called adult to waste so much energy hating on another man. That’s a female trait.
Isn’t the real questios, what do fighters owe us?
The reason people are upset with Floyd is that he is leaving a lot of great fights on the table that we would find entertaining.
As a gazillionaire with real career prospects, does he owe us that entertainment?
For some reason, fans expect boxers to fight until they have diminished themselves and then complain that the boxer stayed in the game too long. I’m not sure we do that with other athletes to the same extent.
MODI, (part I)
We all know Boxing is brutal. Entering that ring, there is no guarantee that you will ever be the same (see Gerald MCClellan) or that you will even walk out (Levander Johnson).
It is an even more corrupt business. A history of taking dives, paid off referees and judges, and mob control. Fighters routinely getting ripped off by dirty promoters. And then add in the dishonest networks and their say.
A ‘legacy’ doesn’t mean jack-schmitt to me as a fan. It’s normally just another weapon used to bash athletes (usually Black) who don’t bojangle to drums of the bigbox media drones and the self-selected ‘defenders’ of the every sport’s ‘honor’ and ‘tradition’. ( You know, the types who think Tyler Hansborough’s crew cut, 4 year stay, and ‘desire’ make him one of ‘greatest’ college player ever, regardless of whether he actually won a championship or not.)
That’s what surprised me most, MODI. Is that this article of yours, as careful as you attempted to be, sounds dangerously close all the drones. “Your retirement minus the Cotto fight now puts your entire career into question.” 10 plus years of a supreme demonstration of the Sweet Science is now meaningless because he didn’t fight one guy?
Come on MODI. That is, dare I say, Whitlockian in its inanity. I come to sites like cosellout, TSF, and DWIL to get away from that.
As far as I’m concerned, PBF, or any fighter for that matter, doesn’t owe me, you, boxing fans, or the sport of Boxing a DAYUM thing. That’s why I’m only ‘disappointed’, but don’t feel ‘betrayed’. He gave me great entertainment as long as he wanted to, and I enjoyed it. No more, no less. Had he got his brains bashed in for my entertainment, oh well.
The truth is, we don’t actually care about these guys.
Those same folks who claim you ‘owe’ something to the sport are the same ones who laugh at your health problems (Ali), financial problems (Joe Louis/Evander Holyfield), or mental problems (Tyson). They mock your slurred speech and financially driven comeback attempts. Not a one of us, who cheered for Meldrick Taylor’s courage, are doing anything for him now that he’s wandering around Philly broke and with a mush for brains.
Part II
In this corrupt sport, PBF’s true ‘legacy’ will be to show these young’uns how to make real moves for themselves and their careers, to manage their careers in such a way to set themselves up for life after boxing and leaving the sport with all your faculties.
I don’t like all his promotional tactics (he could tone down some of the ‘out of control nicka’ aspects of it), but in American, they work. Since leaving Arum, PBF purses (and without having to pay that promoter’s cut) are 8Mil (Baldomir), 25+Mil (ODLH), 20+ Mil (Hatton). It should be noted that Arum told PBF that ‘the money’s not there’ for a ODLH fight, which became the most lucrative fight in boxing history. Throw in another 20 Mil for that wrestling gig.
IMO, Floyd and the G.O.A.T. proclamations are simply for promotional purposes. I don’t think he really believes it any more than Lil’ Wayne does about his Hip Hop proclamations. But it generates conversation and controversy in a sport and country where controversy sells.
Boxers, like corner backs and wide receivers, have been talking crazy sh!t for years. As fans, we all KNOW this. Why start taking it seriously now? These guys are basically independent contractors, trying to position themselves for the most lucrative deals possible. Bringing attention to yourselves, whether positively (Pacquaio) or negatively (Mayorga; Tyson) is part of the deal.
So my question for you MODI is this: If PBF never makes that statement (being the GOAT), do you still write this article? Is his ‘legacy’ still tainted?
Myron…. what he owes us is pursuit of excellence. If he wants to just make money, win titles, and that’s it… then let me know from the jump. So then, knowing hat you are in it just to make money, I don’t have to care.
But if you aspire to something better, to be considered the greatest ever at what you do, then you can’t go on fighting b and c-level guys and expect me to put you there.
See Myron the trouble is that boxing is the ultimate individual sport in that you are measured by who you face and the decision as to who that is is all up to you.
But hey… I can’t tell Floyd what to do with his life. I just don’t want him to think he can get away with pissing on my head and telling me it’s raining.
I’m going to have to side with Sweet Jones cause his argument is stronger. I know nothing abotu boxing, but his argument about why people are “disappointed” stuck with me. I was watching ESPN Classic last night and some commentator said that when Magic came back in 1996 he diminished his legacy.
How the fuck and some random sports guy tell Magic that his legacy is diminished? What does making a random comeback in 1996 have to do with winning five rings and being the best point guard of all-time?
I don’t know, folks catching feelings over people making moves that benefit them like athletes owe us something. They don’t anymore than the people at the DMV.
Do you job and quit when you dont’ want to do it anymore.
Sweet… where to begin with your arguments?
First, this idea that if you mention the word “Legacy” in regards to a boxer you are somehow taking a whitlockian approach is ridiculous. It doesn’t make you what he is to somehow have the gall to ask if someone is ruining their legacy. And if we’re going to use the argument that we oly use the world legacy as a bludgeon…. how come people have great respect for Larry Holmes? because he busted his ass in the big fights, and cleaned out an entire division in the 70’s
and Sweet…. I never laughed at Ali, or Holyfield, or Taylor, or Tyson. I loved them intensely. And I still do. I wish they could live healthy lives, feted and respected like the great champions they are.
Okori,
Great respect for Larry Holmes?
Perhaps we have different memories. Because the Holmes I remember spent a majority of his HW reign bitter over the LACK of respect he received (not better than Ali’ / only a sparring partner, weak competition of his era, etc.) and the lack of support/recognition he received when he threatened Marciano’s record.
Only now is the Easton Assassin truly getting his props.
SWEET- Please. Nobody is hating on AVOID GAYFEATHER. Just because you have his jockstrap around your throat like some cotton necklace doesn’t mean we all need to be blinded by the FRAUDULENT competition he has faced since 2003. It’s called “keepin it real” son and you aren’t. You’re a confused fan who has to eat dirt because that PUSSY doesn’t want to fight the top welterweights in the division.
You can’t be a boxing fan. You’re simply a patriotic black man and/or pro-American fan who has an affinity for the media driven HYPE AVOID GAYFEATHER has received. Nothing wrong with it, because Boxing is all about nationality and pride. Yours is aligned with this waste of sperm. Too bad, because when you start blowharding bullshit about AVOID to an avid fight fan like myself, I will smack your face with REALITY. Quoting Nas is a waste of time son. Nas is the best in his game, while AVOID is nothing more than A MEDIA CREATION. N
well….. the Ali stuff was largely beuse he was the guy who killed the Ali myth. The guy after Louis had the same problem, as did the guy after Marciano, as did the guy after Zale at 160.
but people do respect Larry, and boxing writers for a large part always have.
SWEET- LMFAO @ AVOID GAYFEATHER made 20 million in the WWE. The man was paid 1.8 million by Vince McMahon, you moron. LMFAO @ 20 million announced to get the promotion rolling. And he was NOT paid anywhere near that much for the Baldomir fight. The reported payout for that fight was 2 or 3 million tops.
Get your facts straight before you entertain us with AVOID GAYFEATHER nuthugging promotions.
The fighters owe the best fights to the public. That’s all they owe. If they don’t, then they are open to any and all criticisms that are available. That’s boxing. If you fight the best you can retire early if you want. You want to call yourself the best, go out there and PROVE it against quality competition. If you decide to mislead your fans by fighting GARBAGE, you will get shouted out. Fighting a collection of overhyped, washed up, undersized fighters throughout the last 5 years will leave your alleged “legacy” tarnished in the eyes of intelligent fight fans.
There is a REAL LEGEND who is making his way towards the Boxing Hall of Fame. His name is Miguel Cotto. Cotto would be the BEST fighter AVOID GAYFEATHER will have faced in his entire PHONY career and he doesn’t want to do it for WHATEVER reasons. Miguel Cotto has already defeated better competition than AVOID has ever gotten into the ring with- Quintana and Mosley. and now Margarito. And yes, I’m Puerto Rican and PROUD of our boxing history. Sadly enough, Cotto is being denied his chance to elevate himself, because the so-called “best” is acting like a PUSSY!
LMFAO @ Fighting Cotto’s sparring partner but not wanting to fight Cotto himself.
P U S S Y
Sweet Jones,
“Whitlockian”… coming from someone else, dem’s fighting words! LOL! …Listen, I can only write my opinion. If on occasion it lines up with someone I despise, that is not something that I can concern myself with. I faithfully aim for TRUTH and will worry about who agree and disagree later. But let me be clear which I may not have been in the article. (If I had a doover, I would not have written it in the “open letter” format which made the article more personal than the assessment needed to be.)
Boxing is a brutal sport. I have more appreciation for boxers than any other athlete in the world. The work ethic, stamina, discipline, courage, heart, and desire to compete at the highest levels is simply off the charts. Just from having sparred a couple of rounds in Gleason’s Gym, I understand this. I respect ALL boxers, and championship-level boxers the most. On many levels — both athletically and business-wise, my respect for Floyd is immense.
Your larger criticisms about the exploitative nature of the sport are well-taken.
Floyd Mayweather doesn’t personally owe me or anyone else jack shit. That is not the point. Now does he owe the sport? The answer is two-fold. One is absolutely not. Boxing abuses most fighters, chews them for breakfast, spits them out at lunch, and leaves them for dead at dinnertime. Floyd has flipped the script and much respect to him on that count.
HOWEVER, he boasts incessantly that he is the best P4P fighter — both historically and in this era. Now it ain’t braggin’ if its the truth. But he cannot have it both ways. Plain and simple. He has recused himself from all best-ever discussions, period. If you, Floyd himself, and boxing fans are comfortable with that reality — then there should really be no problem with the article. Everything is good. …I remember after an over-the-hill Holmes lost to Tyson and in the post-fight interview, he said that he was fine and laughing all the way to the bank. Good for Holmes and the honesty is appreciated.
Sweet Jones — Part 2
“10 plus years of a supreme demonstration of the Sweet Science is now meaningless because he didn’t fight one guy?”
No, no, no, not meaningless at all! He goes down as a great, great fighter regardless — just leave him out of all the “best-ever” discussions — or “dominated era” discussions. He deserves a “great fighter” legacy like say, an Oscar, just not like a Pernell Whitaker. If Whitaker never fights Chavez, then his legacy becomes diminished too. Send Floyd to the HOF too. But in PURELY historical boxing terms and boxing only terms his legacy IS tainted.
“So my question for you MODI is this: If PBF never makes that statement (being the GOAT), do you still write this article? Is his ‘legacy’ still tainted?”
SJ, your last post makes perfect sense to me. The answer is NO. I don’t write this article, if Floyd doesn’t claim supremacy at every single turn. Also, the media and myself, has granted him that supremacy, and now it is time to for that to stop. If it has been just promotional hype, then it is time we recognize it as such and apply his legacy that was explained in the last post.
In summary, there are two separate discussions going on here. Yours is about the cruel business of boxing and who is pimping whom. (which I agree with you). And the other is the actual sport of boxing — the only sport where champions can be recognized without having to face the top competition which defies the most basic notions of meritocracy — the foundation of which all sports is based on (not including the 2002 NBA Western conference finals of course).
MODI- I will go as far as to say AVOID GAYFEATHER is an average Welterweight. He was nowhere near being a “great” Super Lightweight, either. The man is a good fighter. He could be great, but beating a collection of horse manure @ 140 and 147 doesn’t impress me nor anyone else who knows their boxing. People like SWEET “want” AVOID to be this terrific fighter. You can’t be considered top flight unless you fight the best. Only in Boxing can someone be given this bullshit title of being the best without beating the best…lol.
COMICAL
Let’s kill two myths (Mayweather ‘ducking’ Cotto and the purse from the Baldomir fight) with one article: http://msn.foxsports.com/boxing/story/8234754/Mayweather’s-retirement-right-move-for-boxing
“The one common argument that surrounded his career from 140 on up was whether or not he any longer desired to test himself against the very best. A six-round bludgeoning of Arturo Gatti in June 2005 collected Mayweather a title in his third division, though at a time when Ricky Hatton was the division’s true champ, by virtue of a stoppage win over longtime junior welterweight kingpin Kostya Tszyu earlier in the month.
A Mayweather-Hatton bout would come about only 2-and-a-half years later after the fact and one weight class up. A more objective view would reveal Hatton’s reluctance to sign on as the real reason the fight didn’t happen any sooner, but Floyd’s incredible self-confidence brought about disdain (and perhaps jealously) from enough fans to hold the superstar responsible for just about any major fight that didn’t come about.
The same could’ve also been said for a Mayweather-Cotto fight, a matchup Floyd personally asked for the moment he beat Gatti into submission. Cotto was in attendance that night, but questions about such a fight materializing was met with a response of “12 to 18 months away” from Top Rank regarding how long before the Puerto Rican would be ready for such a fight.
**SNIP**
However, when the next step was discussed, it was Margarito’s name that resurfaced. Mayweather decided enough was enough and eventually bought out the remainder of his contract with Top Rank. A one-fight deal with Goossen-Tutor Promotions led to an $8 million payday — $8,000,001 to be exact, barely exceeding the amount offered by Top Rank for a Margarito fight — and winning the linear welterweight crown with the Baldomir fight. “
Jimmy, i give floyd far more credit in his lighter days than you. His win over corrales was masterful, and I can’t assume that Diego’s off-court problems were a training distraction. Floyd has had his own share of off-court problems and that has not effected his performances.
SJ, I read the whole article you linked to and the author failed to mention one very important item. He makes the case that Floyd’s void creates opportunities for others, but the truth is that Floyd’s unwillingness to pass on his publicity to new young fighters will inhibit that. Floyd is finally one of the few draws, and he has never used that to promote one single up and coming fighter. Oscar brought Floyd to a new stratosphere of popularity and Hatton already had a great following.
When interview on Jim Rome is burning, he said “I’m not going to let Cotto eat off my name”. Well why not? Didn’t Floyd eat some off Oscar’s name? Isn’t this always the way new fighters get popular? Hopkins said everything changed for him after he fought Oscar popularity-wise. Why not transfer your popularity to someone else? Contrary to the author’s opinion, Floyd’s retirement does not create opportunity, it limits it. Now everyone has to work that much harder. Paul Williams could knock out Quintana cold and nobody out of strict boxing circles will know about it. …Cotto-Margarito promises to be a great fight, but won’t get the American audience it deserves. Oscar is still the only welterweight who can carry others… like you say, i am pretty sure that he will fight Cotto and will bring him into a new popular stratosphere
Jimmy,
After trolling on here and insulting Mayweather and all his fans, what do you have to say to that article about Cotto ducking Mayweather and not the other way around?
The worst part about sports is troll fans like you, all you do is criticize, you have very little understanding of the sport, and very little respect for the work it takes to become that great.
If you think Mayweather is such a punk and so soft, why don’t you start a boxing career. I’d like to see you survive a four round amateur fight. I’d guess 90% of the world doesn’t even have the stamina to finish, much less compete. Of course you could always just keep trolling on Mayweather, as we all hold you in such high regard. 20 years from now nobody will know “gayweather” just you buddy and your wonderful contributions to the world of boxing.
SWEET- Your ignorance shows no bounds, does it. First of all, FOXSPORTS didn’t create this article. FOXSPORTS admits they DO NOT cover boxing well at all. Let’s go to where the ORIGINAL SOURCE of this laughable figure came from= Jake Donovan. Jake Donovan works for boxingscene.com. They are as informed about boxing as the drunk at the bar. Goosen NEVER confirmed how much GAYFEATHER was paid. Even Baldomir’s alleged total of 1.6 million was questioned.
As for Cotto vs Gayfeather, the most hysterical decision Camp Gayfeather made was fighting Bruseles. NUFF SAID THERE!
GEBER- One of the GREAT things regarding the internet is how we can scroll down and chart what the fighters were doing during their reigns. First of all FOOL, Cotto had been chasing GAYFEATHER since 2004. Team Cotto wanted to fight, but Team Gayfeather chose to fight Bruseles. Neither were champs. Cotto won the 140 title in Sept of ‘04. The first challenge was tossed right after Cotto beat Kelso. GAYFEATHER fought Chop Chop and only him in 2004. Chop Chop had GAYFEATHER stumbling and it was right there where Mr. GAYFEATHER decided to cherrypick the division. GAYFEATHER got to 140 and fought only Bruseles and Chop Chop before fighting the biggest paper champ of the division. Ricardo Torres popped into the picture in September of 2005. Cotto and GAYFEATHER fought in June of 2005, but AVOID wasn’t sticking around to meet Cotto after he saw Cotto take apart Abdullaev. Cotto has a mandatory vs Torres a few months later. AVOID was still making excuses. Instead of forcing the fight with COTTO, he took the EASY way out to fight lesser opponents @ 147. Team Cotto was only repeating the obvious. They couldn’t make the fight because Cotto has a mandatory vs Torres in September of ‘05.
What the FUCK was AVOID going to 147 for? He surely wasn’t moving up to fight any of the top contenders! Simple reasoning. The dude wasn’t sticking around 140 to get his head knocked off by Miguel Cotto.
AVOID GAYFEATHER conveniently moved up to fight A STIFF in the washed up undersized Sharmba Mitchell in November of 2005.
As for me fighting GAYFEATHER, I have another Puerto Rican he can fight= Miguel Cotto.
Mayweather will be back, after Oscar whoops the winner of Cotto-Margarito.
It is good to see that Okori still is talking junk about Floyd just like the fool Jimmy.
Am I the only one getting tired of captial letters and obviously anti-gay comments?
Just wondering.
Maybe I’m just completely cynical about boxing, but I really don’t see - at this point - what boxers owe to each other or to the fans. It seems to me that the only real reason to get into boxing in 2008 is because a) your situation in life is so desperate and your athletic options so limited that you have no other choice or b) you are so supremely talented that to not box would deprive yourselfe of millions. Floyd obviously falls into the latter category. What makes Floyd unique is that he had always had an escape plan yet was so talented that keeping an eye on his exit never diminished him inside the ring. Usually, the boxers who are just in it for the money end up getting exposed.
Myron that is the trouble. we don’t know how talented Floyd really is, because the one time in his career that he faced Jose Luis Castillo, the proud champion of his own weight class who was (at least for that one night) on his level, he needed the help of the judges to get out with a win. And to this day there are people who will argue hat Jose’s stoic pressure wore down Floyd and won Jose the fight.
In boxing, as in much other sports, talent is judged by the level of competition. The only difference is that in boxing, unlike those other sports, you can find a way to never face the best. You can face mandatory challengers, move out of divisions whenever serious contenders arrive, or make ridiculous financial demands. It’s hard work but it can be done.
That’s what he owes the fans of the sport. What he owes the guys in his division is a chance to become the champion if they have proven themselves worthy.
OKIRI- That 2002 fight was the man that exposed AVOID as the NON I know he is. Any smart fight fan can watch that fight and know these bigger welterweights would DOMINATE him. In 2002, Castillo was pretty formidable. I also saw the fight between Chop Chop and AVOID and also saw him wobbled by a powerful uppercut. These little details aren’t a big deal, because real fighters get wobbled. Boxing hype, via HBO, SHO and ESPN, attempts to make a fighter look unbeatable when they’re undefeated. That was the lure with AVOID. AVOID couldn’t make himself marketable with his fight style, so he needed another hook, and it was his undefeated record. There was a reason why Hatton was chosen to fight AVOID @ 147 instead of his more natural 140 weight. AVOID saw the lackluster fight he had with the soft punching Luis Collazo and saw an opportunity to take advantage of Hatton’s smallish frame. AVOID GAYFEATHER doesn’t have the physical advantage @ 140 if he fights Hatton there, but taking him deep to 147 was perfect. Hatton looked like a total joke in both of his welterweight fights. What a SHOCKER! The AVOID GAYFEATHER fans got suckered, as usual. LOL
Can anyone imagine the punching power of Cotto, who is fighting at his PERFECT weight class for the body he has, nailing AVOID @147? Guarantee you AVOID knows. It’s the same reason he has battled ONLY light hitting Judah, Baldomir, and Oscar @ 147 and undersized Sharmba Mitchell, respectively. Let’s take a peek at the punching abilities of guys like Shane, Margarito, Cotto, Clottey, Quintana and Cintron. One can’t even begin to measure the punching abilities these guys have next to the STIFFS AVOID GAYFEATHER has entertained at 140 AND 147.
Only in Boxing can the so called best proclaim to be the best and not defeat the best.
SAD!
Okori,
Is there any reason that you fail to mention how Mayweather gave Castillo a rematch 8 months later and eliminated any doubt as to who was the superior fighter?
you will notice that I said, Sweet, at least for that one night. And even in the rematch Castillo did get some work done. He was too good not to.
But see here is the problem. The guys Floyd has told us he wants to be compared to all had those moments, and they showed heart and courage to get themselves out of it. Pernell Whitaker, the greatest lightweight since Duran and Floyd’s stylistical forebearer, was behind on points and needing a knockout to beat Diobelys Hurtado and Pernell got it. Archie Morre battled through 4 knockdowns to beat YvonDurelle. Meldrick Taylor fought like a man even though, as we would discover, his skills were being dissipated right in front of us. Ali beat Frazier with a broken jaw. Holyfield wobbled and hurt badly, his elephant-sized heart being the only thing keeping him up. Those are the moments that make the champions.
Anyone can hold a title, now especially. But a champion is made when he’s forced to dig deep, to a place beyond where most could go.
Okori,
So let me get this straight: Floyd is not a ‘real champion’ because none of his opponents have forced him to ‘dig deep’? Is that really your position?
yeah. that’s most people’s positions actually.
he’s ot a champion on the par with the guys he wants to be until he has that moment where he pulls a fight out.
And those ‘most people’ hold, IMO, an idiotic position.
Those are the same folk who claim Tiger Woods can’t be an all time ‘great’ until he comes from behind on the final day.
Another part of being a ‘champion’ is superior preparation and training.
A coked-up Pernell (one of my all time favorites) should have NEVER been in a ‘war’ with Hurtado.
no… that’s not the point of the position.
the point of it is that when someone ups their level to come up to you you up yours one step more. like what Magic and Bird did with each other. same basic principle.
Okori, I don’t think that Floyd can be penalized for never having to “dig deep”. If he is better than everyone else (see Ali in 1960s or Roy in his prime) then he shouldn’t be punished for his superiority. However, he SHOULD definitely be penalized (legacy-wise) for not fighting the best out there.
Myron, as to the point “do boxers owe other boxers”, the culture and history of the sport has always been “they do”. Unfortunately, boxing talent alone will not make you money in the sport so the very few guys who can pull in crowds usually elevate others before they leave the game. By doing so, they give back to other struggling fighters after they are gone. Every great fighter was once helped out by a more popular fighter who did not duck them. Floyd included. Expect DLH to do this again by fighting Cotto.
Sweet Jones, assuming that we can agree that Floyd deserves praise for getting out of the ring happy and healthy, can we also agree that historically-speaking he should not be brought up in the same class as Pernell Whitaker because he chose not to fight his best contemporaries. Can we agree on that?
it’s not a penalty Modi. it’s a What-if that he is going to have to deal with.
MODI- Amazing how idiots like SWEET think AVOID GAYFEATHER is on some pedestal where he cannot be questioned, as if he has fought Hall of Fame talent during his FRAUDULENT reigns @ 140 and 147. It’s really ABSOLUTELY amazing, man. The blinding power of the media, I tell you.
It’s so funny how AVOID has run this charade on the boxing public. I have not seen anything remotely close to this for the exception of Prince Naseem Hamed. Hamed got his lights shut out on his BOOTLEG career when a REAL legend named Marco Antonio Barrera disconnected the current of lies that the Prince (lmfao) was about. I can see the SAME thing happening to AVOID when and if he finally decides to venture into the ring against someone more than capable of putting him on his ass.
Then the AVOID GAYFEATHER fans can use excuses like:
1. He didn’t have it in him after his retirements
2. The retirements sapped his skills
3. He is in the twilight of his career. In his prime he would have beat Cotto
4. He was rusty after his long layoff.
That’s the next set of bullshit excuses AVOID will supply the public.
MODI,
I am on record as believing the fight will happen. (Keep the faith)
When (not if, when) PBF beats Cotto, must he then fight Paul Williams also to secure his legacy? What about Berto? When will it be alright with these ‘fans’ for the man to walk away?
I think the difference between me and you, respectfully, is that I don’t equate retiring with ‘choosing not to fight his best contemporaries’.
Because we both know that game goes on and on and on. There are folks out there now who won’t give Ray Leonard his props because he ‘ducked’ Pryor. We both acknowledge that RJJ is one of the greatest of all time, and yet his haters will STILL champion Darius Michaelczewski.
If you believe the man’s resume is not as robust as some of the other ATGs, that’s fine by me. His skill set will get him in the ATG conversation. I just thought your dismissal of the man’s career was a little over the top.
But I respect and understand that you put it in a ‘once in a generation’ type of fighter context.
I also find your ‘obligation to elevate others’ theory strange. I don’t recall megastars like Ray Leonard, Hearns, or Hagler ‘elevating’ any young fighters. Lennox walked away without passing the HW torch. PBF’s contemporaries Barrera, Morales, Marquez, and Pacman have been in an unofficial tournament for years. None of them are even thinking about ‘elevating’ Guzman or Valero.
So perhaps you can expand on that theory a little bit for me.
Sweet…. here’s the thing. One, it is not assumed that PBF just easily beats Cotto. In order to give Cotto trouble you have to hit him a lot, and hit him hard when you do it. That little pitter-pat stuff doesn’t work because he’s just going to walk through it and slowly break you down. And the mayweather defense, great though it is for picking off head shots, is perhaps the perfect thing for a guy who goes to the body as well as Cotto.
And no he won’t have to fight Paul Williams, or Andre Berto (who is a LONG way off from being in this conversation.) Because if he beats Cotto, convincingly and not by another highly controversial judging fiasco like the first Castillo fight was, then he will have beaten the guy everyone regards as the best fighter in the division.
Finally… Lennox did, in some way, elevate Vitali Klitschko. He made it possible for people to accept that Vitali could be the heavyweight champion by virtue of the crackler they put on in Los Angeles. And Valero is impossible to bring into this discussion because he can’t fight in the United States right now, so anyone who did want to fight him would have to go over to Asia right now and that is not something any tv network is going to be happy to do.
Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, and Duran were in this way unique: they all went to the same division en masse. and Hagler did elevate young guys (John Mugabi for instance.) so what Leonard, Duran, and Hearns did was leave the 147-pound division to a whole new crew of guys like Donald Curry and Lloyd Honeyghan.
SWEET- Hey, clown! Wilfredo Benitez, one of the greatest fighters out of Puerto Rico “elevated” Sugar Ray Leonard. Roberto “Manos De Piedra” Duran decided to “elevate” Sugar Ray Leonard. Sugar Ray Leonard decided to “elevate” Thomas Hearns. Julio Cesar Chavez decided to “elevate” Oscar De La Hoya. Great fighters fight the best available.
It’s funny how incredibly ignorant you are. This LAUGHABLE presumption you have about Cotto losing to GAYFEATHER is beyond amusing. I wonder why GAYFEATHER never stepped into the ring with Ricardo Torres when he was at 140. That’s because GAYFEATHER doesn’t have the NUTSACK to get in there against someone who can crack. Pretty ironic that he is the champ NOBODY wants to fight at 140 currently. I’m sure you think Cotto is beatable because of his fights with Chop Chop Corley and Torres. You see a weak chinned fighter who YOU believe AVOID can take out, like he did Hatton.
Allow me to explain, rookie. Cotto outgrew 140. He was melting himself to make weight. At 147, Cotto has not been phased by anyone’s punching power. He handles the weight better and has become a more fearsome puncher. As Cotto has gone on to physically manhandle opponents, he is simply getting stronger and more experienced. His fight with Mosley just exemplifies the type of SKILL Cotto has. He OUTBOXED Mosley rounds 10,11, and 12. He had Mosley looking amateurish in round 11 with his sweet footwork and pulverizing jab. I’m sure you’re going to bandwagon the AVOID GAYFEATHER fanboy lyrics. You know the ones! The ones that say Cotto was “getting tired” and Cotto was “ready to get taken out” etc etc etc. The only thing being taken in the last 3 rounds of that fight was an exhibiltion in boxing via Cotto’s fists and Shane’s face. A closer look at Shane’s face during the press conference gives you the details of Cotto’s hard hitting hands.
You keep that delusion going, GAYFEATHER fan. Here is a clue. GAYFEATHER wouldn’t beat Mosley. That’s why he chose to fight Judah instead of Shane. Cotto has GREATER skill than Shane. His ability to box AND slug is what makes Miguel the best there is right now. And like a REAL PROFESSIONAL, Cotto respects the game and fights THE BEST COMPETITION in the division. He fights an occasional set up (Gomez) but eventually gets in there vs. THE BEST. Margarito is a DANGEROUS opponent. Cotto could come up with a myriad of GAYFEATHER-like excuses, but that’s not the way PUERTO RICAN FIGHTERS get down. There is a respect for the game. There is no hype in Puerto Rican fighters. That’s why we develop boxing superstars, despite only having 4 million people on the island. Nobody knew the name “JuanMa” before this past weekend, but everyone at 126 knows who he is now. Cotto is no hype. He doesn’t need HBO to create an image of greatness. Cotto does it inside the ring.
The way it should be………..
Okori,
And YOU assume that PBF can’t hit. Ask Judah or Hatton if those punches were ‘pitter-patter’. Why do you think a bigger fighter like DLH comes on after the fight talking about it “wasn’t the night for the jab”? Those lead and counter rights of Mayweather’s are hard shots. Those left hooks are hard shots. Delivered with quickness.
And what proof is there that Cotto can break PBF down to the body? Even better, are you so sure he will get past Margarito?
Lastly, re-read your own last paragraph. Can’t have it both ways. On one hand, you argue that Leonard and crew leaving the division opened it up for younger guys. I can make the same argument about PBF leaving 140. I’ve already shown where those guys turned down fights with Floyd at 140. Why didn’t the ‘new crew of guys’ like Cotto and Hatton ever fight each other at 140?
And of course, had ‘AVOID’ beat Cotto at 140, you would have been the main one screaming about weight issues. Riiiiiight.
Jimmy, please grow up and get off that Latin Lettuce you smoking.
you missed the first part. Hit him OFTEN. at this point with his hands the way they are… Floyd isn’t exactly going to be reenacting the best work of Henry Armstrong anytime soon which is what you have to do against Cotto. And by the way how do I know Cotto can land body shots against the defenses of Mayweather? Because Castillo did it in their first fight and we can agree that Cotto is a miles better fighter than Castillo. And as far as DLH goes… anyone who does what he did against Trinidad, and against Mosley in the rematch, makes it so that I don’t have to listen to him discuss strategy.
and here’s the problem with your theorem about Leonard at 147. The guys who were there were, by all accounts, not yet ready for the top-notch talent of Hearns and Leonard (whose best weight was 147) and Duran (who was still in the twilight of his reign as the sport’s finest fighting machine at lightweight.) And Hearns, Leonard, and Duran all fought each other. To say that Floyd, who fought someone from a division above him and a division below him instead of defending his title against a welterweight, gets the same dispensation that Ray Leonard gets for fighting Tommy Hearns and Wilfred Benitez at their best weights is a little ridiculous.
and let’s take a look at Floyd’s time at 140. At no point, ever, was he the best fighter in this division. Kostya Tszyu, a stolid guy with a world-class amateur pedigree and the unquestioned Ring Magazine champion, was. And anyone who says that he wasn’t the best fighter, and a champion of the first rank, is either Jimmy (who would tell you that Cotto was) or a Floyd nuthugger (who would tell you that the floyd at 135 beats Duran, Whitaker, Benny Leonard, and Ike Williams in one night.)
Okori,
Wait a minute. So now it takes a Henry-Armstrong-on-his-best-night type of effort to beat Miguel Cotto??!!
Are you serious?
I simply don’t know what else to say at this point.
i meant in terms of style, not performance level. To beat Cotto I would argue you have to tag him with something big early and make him think about a different game plan. I am in no way foolish enough to somehow imagine that Cotto requires a Henry Armstrong-type performance to beat him.
and Boxrec.com is really illuminating about the differences in record between Tszyu and Mayweather
In your effort to make “digging deep” a pre-requisite for boxing greatness, you listed a group of men who among them, could probably not tie their own shoes today. Yes, everyone loves Frazier, Ali, Holyfield, and Taylor. And not one of them is coherent in an interview today. Whitaker (who was awesome, I might add) is a broke ex-con.
I’m just saying: Maybe it’s time we stop to re-evaluate what we actually expect from boxers. Beucause the position really seems to be that we expect a boxer to fight until they lose cognitive ability.
Despite his bitterness and solitude, Marvin Hagler’s life and career should be the goal of every fighter. Make your name. Make your money. And get the hell away from the crooked business before it kills you.
here is the thing about Hagler: Hagler actually had a few of those moments where he showed what a great champion he was (defeating John Mugabi in their great war, the epic with Hearns, winning the title from Alan Minter in England) and he got out with all of his faculties. He was a champion who retired healthy.
SWEET- LMFAO @ YOU. Wait a minute. Zab Judah? Is this the same Zab Judah who doesn’t have the stamina to make it past the 6th rd? You’re a joke, man. Zab Judah is a blown up 140. He has been rocked by a BOATLOAD of fighters throughout his overrated career. Ricky Hatton is another blown up 140 who was ROCKED by light punching Luis Collazo at welterweight, so once again, YOU’RE SAYING NOTHING.
As for proving anything, what have you proved? You have the ability to repeat GARBAGE from low rate media sources, and then spin it so as not to direct any heat towards GAYFEATHER. That’s what he wants his idiotic followers to believe and repeat. Fortunately, there aren’t that many stupid people in the world of boxing. Hatton’s demands have always been insane, but with good reason. Hatton DRAWS in his homeland. He doesn’t NEED to come over and fight here in the states. The reason he did was to make a huge payday and keep it moving. He knew he didn’t stand a chance against AVOID. AVOID didn’t want to consider going out to there to fight the Hit Man when Hatton was at 140. No shocker there. GAYFEATHER fights cupcakes. Don’t worry about Cotto not fighting Hatton. Cotto fights LEGIT opponents, quite unlike your boy.
As for Miguel not getting to GAYFEATHER’S body, all I have to say is this..LMFAO! Sure, he wouldn’t. I’m sure AVOID would revert to the running and hiding style so he won’t get hammered to death. He would make it a boring fight. Miguel might not beat Margarito, or he might dominate him, or they might wind up a draw. At least we’re going to find out. MIGUEL COTTO can’t be considered A PUSSY because unlike AVOID GAYFEATHER Miggy takes on any and all challengers.
LMFAO @ AVOID’S punches hurt. Really? And we know this because of the level of talent he has fought the last 5 years? We KNOW Cotto’s punches hurt. He has been beating up on the best competition available for the last 5 years. His abilities are known to the world.
AVOID GAYFEATHER has not taken on the best since 2002.
OKORI- Hold on, there. By the time Cotto arrived on the scene at 140, KT was already in decline. Since 2001, KT began fighting once a year. He was already in his 30’s and one could easily surmise that the end was near for him. By the time Cotto snatched the title against Kelso in 2005, he was already taking the steps to being the best. Problem with Miguel was he couldn’t fight at 140 any longer, so a few of his last fights at 140 weren’t his best performances. Make no mistake about this though. Cotto applies the same beating, if not worse to KT, that Hatton did to him.
MYRON- And for every one sad story like Ali, there are dozens of retired fighters who fought the best and fought MAGNIFICENTLY, who still have all their faculties. This is the sport they chose. Players are crippled annually in other sports. Are we asking football players not to be football players so they don’t get hurt? Ridiculous. Don’t fall into the trap of excuses the GAYFEATHER fans lay out, where we are supposed to rationalize why GAYFEATHER has been cherrypicking the worst of the worst while calling himself the greatest, only to run away when the well of SET UP FIGHTS has run dry. Let’s STOP it.
The only thing corrupt is the hype GAYFEATHER gets. The undeserving hype of a fighter who doesn’t fight the best, while he false advertises his greatness.
“When (not if, when) PBF beats Cotto, must he then fight Paul Williams also to secure his legacy?”
Sweet, if he fights and decisively beats Cotto his legacy as ATG will be secured. Cotto is the best of the welterweights (although he shouldn’t take Margarito lightly) and that would be enough. He is Floyd’s Frazier and Duran.
perhaps, it was a bit over the top, and I slightly modified the two sentences in question to clarify the “legacy” point better.
about elevating fighters, I thought that the “big 4″ in the 1980’s all elevated each other as has been pointed out. About pacman, he could have easily avoided the 2nd Marquez fight. Marquez is in the same class as an in-their-prime Morales and Barrera but has never received close to the same recognition. By fighting him instead of moving up in weight, he showed that he is a great champion.
You were at the mayweather-Diego fight? Damn, I’m envious!!!!
Myron. the thing about Hagler is that he DID fight everybody before leaving. Floyd could have easily retired last week, and had he substitued real opponents for tomato cans the last 5 years, then there would be no complaints. Having said that, your point about the perils of “digging deep” is well taken.
MODI,
Who are all these ‘real opponents’ PBF was supposed to fight over the past 5 years and who are the ‘tomato cans’ they were supposed to replace?
At 140 Tsyzu was fighting infrequently and then lost to Hatton. Hatton and Cotto both turned down fights at 140. That is a known fact.
PBF signs to fight Judah, at a time when Judah was the undisputed Welterweight champion (holding the 3 major belts) and the RING champion. That fight had a huge buzz. Then Judah goes out and loses to Baldomir. PBF goes through with the fight anyway. People bitch at him for it, but it is that different than Pacman fighting Morales even after Morales got whipped by Raheem.
He then fights Baldomir for the linear recognition and Ring belt. Shane Mosley turned down a fight, partially on DLH orders, due to either a ‘toothache’ or to take a vacation.
He then MOVES UP to 154 and fights the most lucrative fight in boxing history, conceding ring size, gloves, and weight to a HOF fighter for the WBC strap.
He then fights another Ring Champion in a fight people were clamoring for at 140.
So, where are all these ‘real opponents’? Clottey, a B level guy? Cintron, a one dimensional puncher? You and I both know that PBF get crucified for taking ANY of those fights.
Quintana and Paul Williams were young unknowns at the time. What would be the critics reaction if PBF beats those (relatively inexperienced) guys?
Spinks and Vernon Forrest had left the division.
Margarito might have had a case, and then Clottey whacks him around before hurting his hand and then he loses against a live opponent (P Williams). Doesn’t that just re-enforce the belief he’s a glorifed B level club fighter, making his name by claiming to be avoided?
Only until PBF left Arum and Arum start talking sh!t about PBF was the name ‘Margarito’ (a Top Rank guy) even mentioned as an opponent for anyone significant. Only Floyd haters were really clamoring for this.
PBF would be (and still is) favored, big, in EVERY fight from at 140 and 147. You know it, and I know it.
And BTW, Golden Johnson (Margarito) and Gomez (Cotto) are as bad as any ‘tomato cans’ on PBF’s record over the past 5 years.
I’m sitting here trying to compile a list of fighters who left with respect, dignity, health, and money.
I can think of, like, five. And one of them had to come back as an out-of-shape forty year old to do it (Foreman).
Sweet… stop.
Everyone has the gimmes. The trick is whether or not you fight people real in between. Before Gomez Cotto fought Shane Mosley. Shane F’n Mosley, who was the lightweight and welterweight world champion. and before Johnson Margarito fought Paul Williams, a guy who was a fearsome prospect at 147.
Look you and I both know there is nothing I could say that would make you think that PBF is anything but the Black Jesus. So let’s agree to disagree.
Okori,
For the record, I’ve never called PBF a ‘Black Jesus’ or anything like that. I’m just a big time fan of the sport, just like you. I also happen to believe, like many others, that up until he retired, PBF was the best boxer in the world. I believe he earned that designation.
So, I am not opposed to legit critique. I AM against critique of a man’s career rooted in personal dislike. And I am also against hypocrisy.
So, if PBF’s destruction of Zab Judah is insignificant because he’s a bum, then cool. But then you can’t turn around and use the destruction of that very same Zab Judah as evidence of Cotto’s greatness. If fighting and beating a past-his-prime future HOF (De La Hoya) in a higher weight class is cause for derision, fine. But then how can you exalt Cotto’s victory over an equally past-his-prime Shane Mosley?
If you want to hold PBF to a higher standard due to his P4P status, that is your right. And being accused of ‘ducking’ goes with the P4P title (ask RJJ). But not fighting the fighter YOU think he should have fought does not suddenly turn everyone on his resume into a ‘tomato can’.
Most of the folk in the thread understand boxing: both the sport AND the business. We ALL know that there are numerous reasons why fights don’t happen, from corrupt promoters, to competing networks, the sanctioning shenanigans, to improper timing, to just good ole ego.
But I’m seeing way too many here forgetting all that, and blaming it SOLEY on the fighter himself. Especially when it is known that some of those same fighters turned down fights with Mayweather.
If this thread (and forum) was filled with the typical under-20 boxing fanboys, who start 30 threads a day titled “(insert name here) SUCKS!!!”, then I’d understand some of this. But with the level of intelligence of folk participating in this thread, that shouldn’t be the case.
And that’s true regardless of who it is. Pacman (the new P4P king) can prepare for the same critiques, for ‘ducking’ Guzman, Valero, Casamayor, Nate Campbell, the Diaz’s, Katsidis, etc. This list goes on and on…………
Who are all these ‘real opponents’ PBF was supposed to fight over the past 5 years and who are the ‘tomato cans’ they were supposed to replace?…….Can we start with AVOID GAYFEATHER fighting LEGITIMATE WELTERWEIGHTS!
At 140 Tsyzu was fighting infrequently and then lost to Hatton. Hatton and Cotto both turned down fights at 140. That is a known fact. …..NO IT’S NOT. ACTUALLY, IT’S A LIE. COTTO HAD SECURED HIS BELT AND AVOID RAN OFF AFTER THE GATTI FIGHT. WHEN COTTO WANTED TO FIGHT, AVOID DUCKED AND FOUGHT HIS SPARRING PARTNER.
PBF signs to fight Judah, at a time when Judah was the undisputed Welterweight champion (holding the 3 major belts) and the RING champion. That fight had a huge buzz. Then Judah goes out and loses to Baldomir. PBF goes through with the fight anyway. People bitch at him for it, but it is that different than Pacman fighting Morales even after Morales got whipped by Raheem……….JUDAH WAS A PAPER CHAMPION. THE REAL CHAMP OF 147 WAS ALWAYS MARGARITO. JUDAH BEAT SPINKS, WHO WAS NOTHING MORE THAN A BOOTLEG 147 CHAMP.
He then fights Baldomir for the linear recognition and Ring belt. Shane Mosley turned down a fight, partially on DLH orders, due to either a ‘toothache’ or to take a vacation……BALDOMIR THE OTHER PAPER CHAMP OF 147….
He then MOVES UP to 154 and fights the most lucrative fight in boxing history, conceding ring size, gloves, and weight to a HOF fighter for the WBC strap…….AGAINST AN AGING OVER THE HILL 147 FIGHTER WHO WAS ALSO THE PAPER CHAMP OF 154…SEE A PATTERN?
He then fights another Ring Champion in a fight people were clamoring for at 140…..YEAH, CONVENIENTLY DUCKING HATTON AT HIS BEST WEIGHT OF 140.
So, where are all these ‘real opponents’? Clottey, a B level guy? Cintron, a one dimensional puncher? You and I both know that PBF get crucified for taking ANY of those fights……LMFAO! COTTO, MOSLEY, CLOTTEY, COLLAZO…LEGIT WELTERWEIGHTS AHEM
Quintana and Paul Williams were young unknowns at the time. What would be the critics reaction if PBF beats those (relatively inexperienced) guys? …..OH? SO HE DIDN’T FIGHT THEM BECAUSE OF CRITICISM? WHATEVER!
Spinks and Vernon Forrest had left the division…..SPIN CYCLE! GET THE DOWNY!
Margarito might have had a case, and then Clottey whacks him around before hurting his hand and then he loses against a live opponent (P Williams). Doesn’t that just re-enforce the belief he’s a glorifed B level club fighter, making his name by claiming to be avoided……..IT DOES? LMFAO. SO IF HE IS, THEN AVOID GAYFEATHER SHOULD TAKE SUCH AN “EASY” OPPONENT….
Only until PBF left Arum and Arum start talking sh!t about PBF was the name ‘Margarito’ (a Top Rank guy) even mentioned as an opponent for anyone significant. Only Floyd haters were really clamoring for this…….YEAH, THE ENTIRE WORLD HATES AVOID GAYFEATHER..STFU AND STOP CRYING.
PBF would be (and still is) favored, big, in EVERY fight from at 140 and 147. You know it, and I know it…….YEAH, AND A LOT OF YOU MOTHERFUCKERS WOULD BE BROKE IF YOU BET THE HOUSE ON GAYFEATHER AGAINST COTTO.
And BTW, Golden Johnson (Margarito) and Gomez (Cotto) are as bad as any ‘tomato cans’ on PBF’s record over the past 5 years……AS OPPOSED TO COLLECTING PAPER BELTS..
LMFAO @ Sweet trying to start ‘ducking’ tags for Pacquiao. Pac-Man has had legit competition and wars with legit legends of boxing. Don’t EVER disrespect a REAL legend like Pacquiao with an OVERRATED, cherrypicking, punk wanna bee legend like AVOID GAYFEATHER.
Real champs fight real opponents
Pavlik
PacMan
Wladimir Klitchsko
Cotto
Calzaghe
Margarito
Fact of the matter is AVOID GAYFEATHER doesn’t fight the best. There is ALWAYS some BULLSHIT excuse. Thanks to American boxing hype, this idiot has bigger idiots (his fans) supporting his excuses.
Fuck him. I hope he STAYS retired. Boxing doesn’t need FRAUDS. We need REAL GUYS who will be involved in REAL FIGHTS.
Sweet, we can argue about the happenings of one fight here or there, but when five years go by and your best 3 possible opponents (Margarito, Shane, and Cotto) all go unfought, then it is time to look at the source. Unlike a guy like Paul Williams, those three also have a measure of name recognition to sell tix. Like I said, if he fought Cotto just once, then all my complaints would evaporate even if he didn’t fight any of the others. Put it this way, whatever the equivalent is of Pacman taking a dangerous fight like Marquez, we have never seen this. Like I keep saying, if Floyd comes back to fight Cotto next year, then all these criticism will be moot. You say it will happen. I’m about 50-50.
Jimmy, even if Klitchsko fought everybody, please don’t put him on any “real champ” list. The way he refuses to go after any opponent with anything other than his jab despite 30 lb. weight advantages is pathetic. Like David Haye said, Klitchsko is a disgrace to the sport. Since boxing goes as the heavyweight division goes, no one is holding back the sport more than him. Sam Peter cannot knock him out into retirement soon enough. There is no greater boxing wish that I have. …No problem with the rest of the list.
Sweet: in PacMans first fight at 135 he is fighting David Diaz.
MODI- Wladimir’s one true weakness is the reason he fights so deliberately. His stamina is not the greatest, so he must fight with the jab and not go out there shooting all his bullets in the opening rounds. Steward realized this, got him in shape, and also changed the way he fights. He is still a magnificent boxer with the ability to put your lights out if you leave yourself open to one of his powerful mits to the mug. The guy simply can’t keep a high punch output pace without giving up his wind. Sam Peter was utterly schooled when they last fought and he was lucky he didn’t get KNOCKED OUT at the end of the fight. My money is on Wlad again, but this time an earlier KO within 8 rounds.
MODI,
I’ve already stated I believe you will get your Cotto fight. We’ve already discussed how Top Rank turned down a fight.
Margarito’s ‘name recognition’ came from Bob Arum’s anti-PBF, ‘most feared man in boxing’ campaign. Be honest with yourself: when PBF moved up to 147, was this fight on boxing’s radar? Most folk STILL don’t care about that fight, because they don’t see Margarito as that compelling of a fighter that this fight has to happen.
I’ve also already shown where Mosley turned down fights with PBF. Along with the fact that when PBF came up to 147, Shane moved back up to 154.
Two of those guys are Top Rank guys. You as a fan know the history/situation there with PBF. The other willingly stepped aside for the benefit of his boss (De La Hoya).
Everyone knew that PBF wanted a fight with DLH. Arum’s frosty relationship with DLH, along with his desire to line Top Rank’s pockets first, made opting out of his deal the best move.
Come on MODI, you’re better than this. You know how this business works. You keep throwing out fights that SHOULD have happened and I keep asking you to tell me WHEN those fights should have occurred within the boxing real world context of business, timeframes, ego, and money.
Okori,
Diaz is a solid guy ( I met him before), but if you lined up the most attractive fights for Pacquiao at 130 and 135, David Diaz would not make the Top 5.
He wouldn’t even be the highest ranking ‘Diaz’ for Pac to fight.
but he is still a credible guy Sweet. It’s not like it’s Victoriano Sosa he’s fighting, or a Philp Ndou.
the worst part Sweet is that, from the layman’s POV, it looks like the first Castillo fight scared him off from tough competition.
At 130 he fought Jesus Chavez, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, Diego Corrales and Emanuel Burton at a catchweight. But as soon as he hit135 and faced a guy who was gonna make him fight all 12 rounds it all stopped. From that moment, the moment that he felt what it was like to be in there with a world-class guy, he stopped.
LMFAO…This is UNBELIEVABLE. Sweet STILL thinks Top Rank declined a fight with AVOID GAYFEATHER, DESPITE me showing the time frames of the fighters.
Allow me to show EVERYONE how confused SWEET is and how he carries on the LIES the AVOID GAYFEATHER camp likes to fester.
9-11-2004 Cotto defeats Pinto for his 1st title.
This is where team Cotto demands a fight with GAYFEATHER. Allow me to play the “SNIP” game….http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1585/mayweather-challenges-tszyu-hoya-cotto/
“Cotto needs a couple more tune-ups. Right now he’s a little too green,” Mayweather said.
This was said just before his “DANGEROUS” fight with Henry Bruseles. 1-21-2005
1-25-2005 GAYFEATHER defeats Henry Bruseles.
6-11-2005- Cotto defeat Abdullaev
6-25-2005- GAYFEATHER defeats Gatti
Here is where the NONSENSE begins for the GAYFEATHER fans. Cotto had signed to fight Gianluca Branco, but he was injured. This is where Torres stepped in. Torres was the mandatory #1 contender.
9-24-2005-Cotto defeats Torres.
Cotto is ALREADY signed to fight Branco in the rematch in March.
11-19-2005-AVOID GAYFEATHER defeats Mitchell.
Now, the LIES from reality. Top Rank NEVER stated Cotto wasn’t ready to fight GAYFEATHER. It was Team GAYFEATHER that stated Miguel Cotto wasn’t ready to fight him because he was too green. Then he gets “frustrated” and “fed up” and goes to 147? A few years later, it’s the money. I won’t fight Cotto because he isn’t worth the money. Now it’s because he is TIRED and doesn’t want to fight any longer. BULLLLLLLLLLLLFUCKINGSHIT!
What does HBO think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9W-y2-nZI
This video tells the truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5NiLy_5s3g&feature=related
Bottom line is GAYFEATHER doesn’t want to get RETIRED BY MIGUEL COTTO!
End of story!
Okori,
NDou was as credible as anyone else. You can look here and see what Dan Rafael said about the NDou/Mayweather beforehand: http://www.usatoday.com/community/chat_03/2003-09-12-rafael.htm
————————————
Dan Rafael: I don’t know if N’dou stops Floyd, but it’s a real tough fight because N’dou is tall, throws a million punches and has one-punch KO power. If N’dou wins I will not be that surprised.
———————————
Dan Rafael: I think Mayweather-N’dou is a real fight fans’ fight. People have talked about N’dou but not many have seen him. He’s a devastating puncher and I think it will be very good fight. Mayweather may indeed win, but it’s a legit test and N’dou is a worthy challenger.
———————————-
Rex, Georgia: Do you think that Mayweather has a chance against “Killer” N’dou?
Dan Rafael: Well he’ll be the favorite, so he should win, but N’dou has a great chance. Floyd better not be taking him lightly.
———————————-
irvine california: who do you like in the bout between ndou vs maywether and casayomyer vs corrales
Dan Rafael: I like Mayweather but I see a possible upset brewing.
———————————
And you realize Cotto fought that very same Sosa a year later.
Sweet… the difference is that when Cotto did it, he was a prospect being moved up the ladder of contention. When Mayweather fought Sosa, he was the undisputed Lightweight Champion.
And regarding N’dou… this would not have been the first time that a boxing writer was fooled.
Look…. I’m not asking “Money May” (since that is what he appears to want to be called) to fight Cotto, Margarito, and Mosley in succession. But just once, even if it’s by accident, could you have fought a guy where you actually were taking a serious risk to win the fight?
Sweet you say Hattton-Mayweather was a fight people wanted to see happen at 140, but it happened at 147 when everyone and their mother saw the troubles Ricky had at 147 in his first fight? How about Floyd go down to 140 and show us what would have happened at Hatton’s best weight? Or, even better, fight in England to do it?
Do SOMETHING, anything, that gives us the hint that this isn’t clearly a business for you, and you actually care about carving out a legacy for yourself on the same mountain as the Robinsons, the Whitakers,the Canzoneris, the Napoles’s. Some of the best welters of all time, and if we want to include lightweights in the discussion, then the Benny Leonards, the Roberto Duran’s. the Carlos Ortiz’s, the Armstrong’s.
[…] the only man that true boxing fans have wanted to see you fight: Miguel Cotto. Read Full Article at Sports On My Mind Sphere: Related […]
OKORI- How about Hatton taking a PAY CUT to fight GAYFEATHER? Wonder why that doesn’t come to anyone’s mind when mentioning these two. Hatton didn’t need Gayfeather in any way, shape or form. Hatton had fought way more formidable opponents.
Here is another funny little obstacle that prevented Cotto from fighting GAYFEATHER. When the fight was being discussed, Cotto’s camp (Evangelista) were rumored to be offered anywhere between 1.3 and 2 million for the fight. Too comical to even talk about. The EXCUSES for GAYFEATHER are incredible. If ALL these weltweights are SOOOOOO inferior to GAYFEATHER, then he should be lining them up for “EASY” fights. What’s the issue? Isn’t GAYFEATHER supposedly the greatest? I can’t see how anyone can’t possibly think that Avoid isn’t ducking all the best welterweights in the division, Okori. How can you find 7 excuses?
[…] Related: Tainted Legacy: Floyd Mayweather Junior Quits Boxing […]
[…] Tainted Legacy: Floyd Mayweather Jr. Quits Boxing (June 7, 2008) […]
bumping this old topic to ask if anyone happened to have read the latest issue of the ring and read the breakdown that was done on Mayweather’s retirement.
I thought it was a really interesting article and worthy of debate.