Mitch Kupchak Wins NBA MVP in Landslide; CP3 & Lebron Dismissed
May 7, 2008
The Kobe Maturity Myth:
Kobe’s leading of fellow starters Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, and Smush Parker into the playoffs the previous two years was one of the greatest achievements in NBA history. Just ask Dwayne Wade who performed less valiantly when Smush was his backcourt sidekick. But instead of hearing the truth, this year Kobe Bryant is awarded the MVP while media pundits tell us about Kobe’s past imagined shortcomings, new-found emphasis on team-play, and perpetuate “the Kobe maturity myth” … when he was already plenty grown up with three rings to show for it.
Two years ago Kobe Bryant became only the third person in basketball history to average over 35 points per game in a season. Steve Nash was the MVP that year. Last year he led the league in scoring again with 31.7 per game, led a rag-tag bunch into the playoffs again, and didn’t win the MVP again (Dirk Nowitzki). The knock on Bryant was that Nash and Dirk led their teams to more victories and were thus more “valuable”.
In 2008, Bryant is now praised by pundits for his more “unselfish” game, yet he has the exact same assist total as last year. He is lauded for his improved “shot selection”, but has almost the same shooting percentage that he did two years ago when he scored SEVEN more points a game. He is said to have ”matured” by finally ”making his teammates better” yet the past starting triumvirate of Smush-Mihm-Kwame all had their scoring averages drop significantly in 2008[1]. If “making your teammates better” is truly the romanticized criteria for MVP, then no one deserves this year’s trophy more than Laker GM Mitch Kupchak.
Mitch Kupchak 2008 MVP:
Chris Mihm’s growth plan started three years ago when Kupchak drafted Andrew Bynum who blossomed this year into one of the league’s finest young centers. Last year he made another MVP move in not trading Bynum for Jason Kidd despite great pressure. Last off-season he subtracted Smush Parker and added veteran Derrick Fisher at the point. He improved the bench by acquiring Vladimir Radmonovic, trading for Trevor Ariza, and drafting valuable role players. When Bynum went down with a mid-season injury that’s when Kupchak really flexed his MVP muscle by stealing Pau Gasol from the Grizzlies in exchange for Kwame Brown and draft picks. Given the brutally tight Western Conference, it is not unlikely that the Lakers miss the playoffs without this trade.
To his credit Kobe made DID make Smush-Mihm-Kwame better as they all posted their two highest season shooting percentages of in their career playing alongside Kobe from 2005-2007. No one has ever made such poor teammates better… until Kupchak flipped ‘em for Pau, Bynum, and Fish.
Most Historic Player
Picking this year’s MVP was like picking your favorite child. With four MVP-worthy seasons, there could be only one… and only one option to turn to: history. Kobe had a great season, but nothing historic about it. Kevin Garnett too, except for the Celtic record win-differential which KG was given far too much credit. Many forget that Ray Allen was also added and the Celts went 2-24 last year while Paul Pierce was injured. CP3 was history’s choice over Lebron (to be explained soon). In any case, it was clear that a) past Kobe-guilt was in effect, or b) voters just didn’t recognize the historic magnitude of Paul’s season.
As many reporters have already expressed this year Kobe received a “lifetime achievement award”. Last year he should have won it. The year before it should have gone to him or Lebron. But this year, the trophy should have gone to Chris Paul who wasn’t just the most valuable player, but the most historicseason of the four candidates. And while I won’t “fall on my sword” over the Kobe “make-up call”, I’m ready to battle about this 82-28 1st place voting margin, and Lebron’s absurdly underappreciated season.
Why CP3 is the Only One:
As I stated prior to the playoffs, Paul has obliterated so many of the greatest seasons in point guard history. A season that averages 20 points and 11 assists need some historical perspective. Steve Nash never did it, John Stockton never did it, and Jason Kidd never averaged EITHER in any given season. Who did it? “The Big-O” did it four times (while scoring 30!), Magic did it three times, Isiah and Kevin Johnson did it twice, and while Tiny Archibald turned in a ridiculous 34-11 season in 1973. But Paul’s 21 points, 11.6 assists, or his league-leading 2.7 steals do not register as his most impressive feat.
Paul’s 2.5 turnovers per game has gotten far too little media attention despite great scrutiny. (As has his major-league flopping — but that’s on the refs). His level of production, poise, and efficiency potentially unseen in the history of the game. Magic and Stockton– the kings of 11 assist-per-game seasons– lowest turnover total was 3.7 and 3.0. Isiah? 3.7… Nash? 3.3… Regardless of points, no other player on historical record has averaged over 11 assists and less than three turnovers per game. EVER*. (* Oscar Robertson’s turnovers are unknown). To take it a step further by including point totals, the previous lowest turnover rate for a 20-11 man is KJ’s 3.6 in 1990. Paul chopped 30% and a full turnover per game off that. And he did this while having the ball in his hands nearly all the time. Impact on team? CP3 made or assisted on 49 percent of his team’s field goals, the highest percentage in 17 years (Stockton).
One first-place vote for Lebron?:
Critics punish Lebron because the Cavs won only 45 games in the weak eastern conference. One reason is that the Cavs went 0-8 in games where Lebron was out with an injury (includes initial injury game), and are at least a 50 win team. The unchallenged assumption is that the Cavs record would be drastically worse against the West — which is a truth for most teams. Not so fast! The Cavs posted a respectable 17-13 against the West — a HIGHER winning percentage (57%) than against the East (54%). Some teams play to the level of their competition and the Cavs are one of those teams.
The other reason is that Lebron’s supporting cast was almost as bad as Kobe’s from two years ago. Different year, same flawed judgment. Lebron’s 30-7-7 in points, assists, and rebounds has only been replicated by Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan — in his finest all-around season. It bears restating: 30-7-7… 30-7-7… 30-7-7… Had Cavs GM Danny Ferry, and not Mitch Kupchak, landed Pau Gasol at mid-season Lebron James would be this year’s NBA’s MVP.
So how many MVP’s will Lebron get before he retires? See Danny Ferry again. If KG wins another in the next couple of years, be sure to thank Danny Ainge or is that Kevin Mchale? But don’t bet on it. With a healthy Bynum and Gasol for the next couple of years, expect Kupchak and Kobe to clean up the future while making up for the past… Chris Paul? Wait your turn young fella…
The Correct Vote:
1) CP3
2) Lebron
3) Kobe
4) KG (with distance from previous)
MVP Voting Egregiousness Scale (1-10):
4 - Kobe over Paul
9 - 82 - 28 1st Place Margin over Paul
10 - Lebron Gets Only One 1st Place Vote
11 - Mitch Kupchak is not on the ballot
Comments
33 Responses to “Mitch Kupchak Wins NBA MVP in Landslide; CP3 & Lebron Dismissed”
Got something to say?
Well stated. I’m still baffled by how easy it was for Kupchak to get Gasol from the Grizzlies. Just as baffling as it was to see Randy Moss head to the Patriots for practically nothing. Very similar situations… but yes, CP4 will get his soon enough… perhaps in this playoffs?
I’m admittedly biased. Big time Laker fan. CP3 did have a great season. I think the bigger thing is that there is no criteria for these awards. Somehow, it’s almost like college now. The team’s record is now a bigger factor in whether an individual can win an award.
I have to go back to dwil’s article a couple of weeks ago about CP3, though. People talk about the Hornets like CP3 is all that they have, and the rest of the team is made up of scrubs. Yes, Kobe has Pau, but hardly anyone talks about how the Lakers played half the season without Bynum.
As for LeBron, he had a typical season for LeBron. I’ve always agreed with Charles Barkley. The Cavs need to reign him in. He wants to play point guard, but that’s not playing to his strengths. It’s been argued that the team has done him wrong by not getting him a point guard. I can agree with this, but I also put some of it on LeBron for not arguing more. And the guy needs to stop thinking he’s a 3-point shooter!
KG was just totally overlooked. I’m thinking b/c folks thought that he was playing on an all star team.
Kobe hasn’t changed all that much. He can still be immature at times. I still don’t think he’s the leader that most teams want. (speeches and motivating team mates outside of follow his example) His shot selection at times is questionable. Of course, he’ll also make a lot of those. Did he deserve the MVP this year? I can’t really say that he doesn’t. He had a good season and lead his team to a better record that most thought possible. He’s still the best player in b-ball right now. He’s toned down his game some at the beginning of games so he doesn’t sacrifice energy at the end. He’s shown some maturity, but the bad thing for the rest of the league is, he can still get better.
Have to keep you honest… Kobe was not the third but the fifth player to average 35. Wilt, Elgin, Michael, Rick Barry, then Kobe in ‘05-’06. Some serious numbers up there…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_top_individual_scoring_season_averages
Interesting argument, all very valid points.
However, LeBron is not a real MVP candidate. The “unofficial” rule is that you have to be a player on a 50-win team, minimum. Maybe one MVP in the last 30+ years has come from a team that wasn’t a 50-win team. And I forget which one it was. If Kobe didn’t win in 2005 over Nash (despite averaging 35 ppg) because the Lakers were a 45-win team, than LeBron isn’t going to win it this year.
As for Kobe vs. CP3: I thought it was a wash. Both deserved it. Why the argument goes that Kobe has great teammates now, his team really isn’t that impressive. Bynum, for all his “improvement”, averaged a 14-10-2. Those are Andrew Bogut numbers. Decent, and certainly a huge improvement over what the Lakers have gotten out of the Center spot over the past three years. Yet hardly “second banana on a 60 win team” numbers.
And Pau Gasol only arrived in LA after Bynum’s injury. Gasol’s track record speaks for itself - very talented All-Star player, but he’s lead his team to the playoffs once in Memphis. This Laker team, minus Kobe, wouldn’t have done better than Memphis has with Gasol - they don’t have that much talent, and don’t start the “Lamar Odom has improved” talk. Lamar Odom isn’t any different today than he was 9 years ago.
The reality is that Kobe did a lot with very little. So did Chris Paul, whose Hornets team is also made up of marginal players. David West is a talented All-Star who put up his best numbers ever (particularly on defense). Tyson Chandler was one-dimensional, until Chris Paul came along to feed him alley-oops. Peja can’t create for himself - 98% of his threes were assisted.
Both were equally worthy MVP candidates. Kobe got the call for four reasons, from the one that influenced voters the most to the least:
1. He was “owed” the MVP for the accomplishments of 2005-2006. His team just wasn’t good enough to get him that MVP. A large number of Kobe voters made this the makeup MVP.
2. The Lakers beat out the Hornets for the top seed by a game. A large number of voters waited until the end of the regular season to vote, and the Lakers landing the number one seed sealed the deal.
3. CP3 is young, and if he keeps putting up seasons like this (or even better), he will get his MVP. He’s already mentioned in the same breath as Isiah and Oscar for the greatest point of all time, based on what he has done this season, and simply projecting that for another 10 years. Not even taking into account the possibility of improvement or growth!
4. Kobe plays in the larger market, and gets more exposure than the “unknown” Hornets.
The thing about the MVP voting that bothered me the most was that Kevin Garnett got as many first place as he did. It shows the bias of the Boston media, and how much influence they have. Unless you think that KG really deserves the MVP this season!
I don’t get the whole “you must play on a good team but with bad teammates to win MVP” argument. Why should you penalize a player for having good or bad teammates? Maybe Kobe’s team would have won only 30-40 games without him. Then again maybe LeBron’s team would be in the D-League without him, too.
I liked Bill Simmons’ reasoning for KG to win MVP. The man turned around an entire franchise and made all those guys believe they could win a title. You can’t underestimate the value of that to a team.
My criteria is, if there was a 7 game series with your life on the line, who would be the first player you’d choose for your team? Right now, that player has got to be Kobe. Maybe LeBron or of course Tim Duncan. I don’t mean to hate on CP3 but I just have not seen him play much this year, so I can’t really speak on his ability.
Also I hate that “he will get his MVP in the future” thing that SML mentioned about CP3. Shaq should have won like 5 MVPs in his prime and he got robbed all but that one season when he averaged like 30-15. Were Jason Kidd or Allen Iverson really more “valuable” by any measure during those years? I’m not so sure.
Good post MODI.
The fact that Nash beat out Kobe and Lebron and Paul lost to Kobe tells me something about media bias.
I don’t have a problem with Kobe winning, but when you compare the way the media fawned over Nash to the treatment of Kobe and Paul, well, it says something.
I know ya’ll are gonna hate this, but…
Year before Nash: 29–53
First year with Nash: 62–20
I think there was a pretty good case to hand it out to him that year (not gonna argue about the second one).
As far as the Lakers, the supporting cast there just isn’t as bad as people make it out to be. Swap Kobe out with a good point and with a healthy Bynum they’d still be top 5 in the west.
For the record, Motown, I agree with most of your feelings… I’m just stating the biases that effect voter’s thought processes; I’m not agree with them, at least not all of them.
I do think Bill Simmons’ article about why KG is the MVP is a joke. Sorry, but the numbers don’t back it up, and KG isn’t a culture changer all by himself. If he was, he would have gotten those sorry ass T-Wolves teams he’s played with a bit further, right? Ray Allen, a healthy Paul Pierce, veterans like James Posey… all these guys had an effect on the Celtics turnaround. So did just trying, too. The Celtics weren’t as bad as their record last year made them look; they really did tank. This Celtics team, even without KG, would have been the Atlantic division winner based on Pierce + Allen + others. No, not 66-wins good.
And most years, yeah, that talk about culture would be enough to justify giving KG an MVP. But not in a season in which LeBron and CP3 put up all-time numbers, and Kobe won the most competitive Conference, top to bottom, ever in NBA history. The Trail Blazers won 12 in a row, and didn’t even sniff a playoff spot. The Rockets won 20+ games in a row, and were first round fodder.
As for the “MVP in the future” stuff - I hate that, too, Motown. But that is something that the 116 voters - mostly NBA beat writers - take into consideration. That’s why you rarely see the truly deserving guys win MVP. Sorry, but Tim Duncan should have a chestful of MVPs (he’s never failed to win at least 50 games in a complete season , has he?). But that’s also why Kobe got the MVP this season - truth be told, he won this year’s MVP back in the 2005-2006 season… it just took three years to get to him. The same will happen to CP3, no doubt.
And Big Man: Absolutely agree. CP3 put up Nash’s numbers (ppg, apg, FG%), but with less turnovers and doing something else… what’s that called… oh yeah: PLAYING DEFENSE. They should retroactively take away Nash’s two MVPs, and give them to CP3.
Maybe they should add a new rule: instead of one MVP per season, they should have seasons with two MVPs, and seasons with no MVP (like the year Dirk won it) to balance it out.
The bottom line here is that the sportswriters dug themselves a hole by giving the award to Nash those two years and then Dirk last year. While Nash did have a positive impact on the Suns, his numbers were average and he is a horrible defender. As a result, the bar for MVP numbers has been lowered and several worthy MVP candidates from Kobe to Shaq to Lebron to Duncan missed out on the MVP award.
So this year you had two legitimate candidates. That’s the one bone I have to pick in a nice piece MODI. When people speak of Kobe’s MVP as a lifetime achievement award its as if they are tarnishing it and saying he is less than deserving. I don’t agree with that. While I love Chris Paul and think he had a great season, Kobe put up great numbers and won one of the best Western Conference races in history. The only thing that really makes Kobe’s numbers look low are his own past numbers. Maybe the vote could have been closer, but Kobe is a very deserving MVP regardless of how many awards he should or should not have at this point.
Beyond that, I also have to wonder whether or not Paul would have been considered such a strong candidate absent Nash’s two MVPs.
“However, LeBron is not a real MVP candidate. The “unofficial” rule is that you have to be a player on a 50-win team, minimum.”
SML, as it relates to Lebron’s value, the Cavs really were a 50 win team as they were 0-8 without him. A simple 5-3 would do the trick. But forget that. I guess that one of the article’s main points is to challenge the very absurdity of that “unwritten rule”. If MVP is as arbitrary as who your GM picks up at midseason, then the entire process needs to be questioned. And it’s a media thing too. Back in the ’70’s when the players selected Kareem won the MVP with something like a .500 record. I think a good place to draw the line is did your team make the playoffs.
“I don’t get the whole “you must play on a good team but with bad teammates to win MVP” argument.”
mtotown, neither do I and that is not my argument at all. I’m just challenging the “unwritten rule” that is the exact opposite argument — and the reality. All variables should be measured. ALL of them — bad teammates and GMs included. …like you I hate the “pay your dues first rule”
Big man, good point about Nash vs. Paul. I think that we can agree that if CP3 were white, then he wins in a landslide. I chose not to wade into that one here.
– SML, cosign your last post. There were many variables that went into the Celtics turnaround but only one guy receiving the credit. The same can be said about Nash and his turnaround of the Suns.
– Fair enough Shon. Don’t get me wrong. Kobe is a bonafide candidate, and I’m not kicking and screaming like I was after the second Nash trophy, Mo Vaughn over Albert Belle, or Pendleton over Bonds. If I’m making a serious fuss, it is over the final vote totals. Can anyone justify that?
Closing Argument to the Jury: 2.5 Turnovers Per Game
MODI-
I wasn’t arguing with what you wrote, I was just stating my opinion on that philosophy that seems to drive some of the reporters’ MVP votes. To watch the people on ESPN or SI argue about who is MVP and why just seems ridiculous to me. I can’t believe Nash won over Kobe in 06 or how Dirk won at all last year. To say nothing of past MVP winners (Karl Malone anyone?) Sorry about the misunderstanding.
SML, MODI-
I think Simmons’ column was spot-on personally but I don’t like where it leads us. By choosing whatever superstar got traded the year before and changed his new team around to be the MVP, it cheapens the award into the “biggest trade acquisition” award. Yet every year there’s someone like that, whether it was Shaq and Nash in ‘05 or KG now. Sort of like how the most improved player award always goes to the guy returning from an injury or getting more minutes, as opposed to the guy who literally went out and improved his game.
Shon hit it right on the head: the writers did set this scenario up, by overplaying Nash’s contributions over Kobe’s amazing seasons back in 04-06. That, in turn, is fueling the debate this season - “if Nash is a two-time MVP, than Paul is definitely an MVP…”, plus the “Kobe wasn’t that impressive this year as he was in the past…”.
Modi: I don’t understand how Kobe can be “punished” for having bad teammates in 2005, then get punished this year for having Bynum for half a season, replaced by Gasol for 30 games. Obviously, if it was up to you or me, we would have given Kobe the MVP back in 2005. But that didn’t happen, and there has to be some consistency. You can’t have Kobe getting bumped because his team wasn’t good enough back then, then have Kobe get bumped again this year because now his team is better than Paul’s.
Kobe’s season is impressive on it’s own: 28.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.5 bpg. Those may not compare with Jordan’s best (32.5-8.0-8.0-3.0-0.8), but those stats are very similar to Jordan on his 96-98 Bulls teams, which were his best all-around teams (Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman).
Finally, I know you mentioned the 0-8 thing before in defense of LeBron, but that still falls on LeBron. You miss enough playing time, chances are you aren’t going to be an MVP. 8 games may not be significant playing time, but it was enough to hurt his chances. And the Cavs are not a D-League team without LeBron; they just suck without him because they are geared around him… it’s like cutting the head off. But if there was no LeBron in Cleveland, the Cavs would still win 35 games with Ilgaukas, Boobie, Gooden or Ben Wallace (depending on pre-trade or post-trade), etc. It’s not a great team, but it’s hardly worse than this year’s Sonics or Grizzlies or Knicks or Bulls or even the Bobcats….
CP3 is the deal and I think it’s a pick ‘em between he and Kobe this year. I’d give it to Kobe based upon the Lakers not missing a beat when Bynum went down before they got Gasol and when Gasol when down with a sprained ankle. They held together and had the best record in the West. No mean feat. Without Kobe it doesn’t happen.
I think Lebron is in a bad situation in Cleveland. If you watched the game last night you saw and heard everyone comment on Cleveland’s lack of imaginative set offense. I thought Brown should have gone after last year but you can’t fire a guy who takes you to the finals, can you? I think the situation is comparable to the situation when Collins coached Chicago pre-Phil. Good coach but not a championship coach. Great players make great teams but they need great coaches. (and flawed roster BTW)
trouc
injuries to amare, marion and joe johnson the year before nash came, along with the trade of Marbury for HOWARD EISLEY, make that first MVP suspect.
The year before the Marbury trade the Suns won like 40 something games and made the playoffs with a rookie Amare and Steph at the helm.. NOBODY ever mentions that.
Nash put up like 16 and 10 that year. Everybody brings up the Nash turnaround, but rarely mentions how Jason Kidd got jobbed out of an MVP using that same logic.
SML, you are absolutely correct that the Nash trophies are fueling the debate in some quarters, but I’m not even factoring Nash into my personal argument. Nash never scored 20 points; never played defense; never led the league in steals and never averaged less than 3 turnovers whil posting 11 assists. There is a huge gap between CP3 and Nash’s best season. Nash had three great years and deserve lots of praise, but no trophies. CP3 is to be judged against history. And 20-11 + 2.5 turnovers has never been done in NBA history.
Also, perhaps I didn’t explain myself clearly on Kobe. I never thought that he should have been punished last year. He deserved to win it over Dirk. But if CP3 had a year last year like this year, then I would vote CP3. I would also vote for CP3 against 96-98 Jordan years. THAT’s how good he was. It is just one of those things with multiple great seasons. No punishing……And while i do see your point how Kobe ends up with getting shafted because of inconsistency, I would rather that this unfairness happen the maintaining a flawed unwritten rule that will only produce many more less-deserving winners over the next 30 years. A consistently bad rule is a consistently wrong rule… but I do see your point
dee, I gotta take Danny Ferry to task… he landed Lebron and has been able to do little as far as a supporting cast… Carlos Boozer staying might have changed everything
Big Man, sooooooooo true. Nobody ever mentions that indeed
MODI - I can’t knock anything Chris Paul has done. He was a deserving candidate and 2.5 turnovers is a hell of a number for a point guard. But I still think Kobe should have won, even if by a slimmer margin. I think winning the West and being passed over the last couple of years really did tip things in his favor, but he was still deserving.
SML - We pretty much see eye to eye on this one. While the rules for determining the MVP certainly leave much to be desired, at least we’ve got some kind of framework that players and fans can hang their hats on. I also agree that Kobe shouldn’t be punished now that his team is actually good. I’m really not sure if anyone else in the league could have won with Kwame and Smush. Especially Kwame. I mean, he simply can’t catch the basketball much less finish.
Great post Modi, you make some good points man.
Also Shon you are so right, the media F%$#ed up when they gave nash the 2 MVPs.
And Big man so true about the suns with Marbury and how kidd got robbed twice for MVPs.
He11 with those stats Nash had with those 2 MVPs. That means Stockton is owed what??? 10 MVPs.
Oh and its true Kobe is the same player he has been for years. He just has a better team. Fat boy Barkley last night was trying to say that Kobe has changed his game. No fool those buster team mates got better and most of all Kobe has an all-star Big man in Pau.
Brotha MODI
First off, thanks for gthe text the other night. It made my night and was much appreciated.
You just KNEW I was going to have something to say about this article. And you just KNEW I was going to disagree with you. First off, I actually wish CP3 HAD won the award, and this is coming from the biggest Kobe fan i the world. As far as I am concerned, the award has absolutely no validity and I wish Kobe’s name weren’t associated with it. In fact, I was hoping Kobe would never win it so as to pain in stark colors exactly how ridiculous the criteria is and how ridiculous it is that the media and not players and coaches vote for the award.
I also hate the fact that the award has been reduced to a team award in essence. In my mind, it should go to the player who played the best that year, regardless of how good or bad his team was.
With that in mind, there is only one logical person to win it and Kobe was that one. CP3’s number ARE historic in the manner you suggest but frankly, those numbers ignore the defensive side of the ball. And make no mistake, CP3 gives up many of the points he creates on the defensive end. He makes steals, but has a difficult time staying in front of his man and that puts serious pressure on his teammates who are playing D against him. Also, since he’s undersized for his position, he’s susceptible to being shot over and posted upon. Kobe made first team all D for a reason, On D, while all of the other great offensive players are resting, Kobe is either roaming with energy, creating havoc on the other team’s D or providing lock-downstifling, man and denial D.
Additionally, CP3’s 56 wins came with a much better bunch of basketball players than Kobe’s 57 wins. CP3 plays with 2 all-star players from this year and another 3 time all-star who as recently as 4 years ago was a leading MVP candidate himself. And those All-stars were extremely healthy. Between them, they played 232 games and missed only 14 games. Compare that to the players Kobe played with. The only other player he played with this season who has ever been an All-star is Pau Gasol, who played 27 games with Kobe. Now it can be argued that Bynum was playing at an all-star level when he went down, in fact, I believe he was. But truth be told, of the 35 games he played, he started only 25 of those and played at an all-star or near all-star level for only about 18 or so of those.
CP3 on the Laker team with the injuries it suffered wins maybe 50 games, Kobe on that Hornet team, with those three all-star level players playing virtually the entire season together challenges 70 wins.
As to your other point about Kobe maturing, I agree 100%. It’s simple hatred and simple-mindedness. Kobe trusted his teammates more because he had better teammates and the ones who were holdovers made themselves better in the offseason. Kobe gets along with his teammates now because he’s no longer the only one who arrives early and stays late. Period. Of course he’s more mature now than he was when he was 23, that;’s the nature of things, but it;’s not like he’s a different person.
CP3 on the Laker team with the injuries it suffered wins maybe 50 games, Kobe on that Hornet team, with those three all-star level players playing virtually the entire season together challenges 70 wins.
Can you explain this KevDog? Cause it seems to me that no scoring guard, unless he’s putting up CRAZY numbers, is worth 20 more wins than a point on Paul’s level.
Big Man, not saying it was conclusive, but even if 20 wins is less than 40, it’s still significant improvement.
I can’t really comment on Kidd since I pretty much stopped watching the NBA after that Portland collapse against LA back in 00 and missed his finals years, but yeah he obviously deserved one himself.
Part of the reason I’ll defend the first Nash mvp though is cause it’s returned the point to a position of prominence, something I’d say is pretty damn good for the league. Looking back on the last 15 years or so it’s amazing how little great point play there’s been (witness all Paul’s equals being pre-92 or so), and it seems that, excluding Jordan, there’ve been a lot of shit games to come out of that fact. I’ll be happy to see that end,
Can you explain this KevDog? Cause it seems to me that no scoring guard, unless he’s putting up CRAZY numbers, is worth 20 more wins than a point on Paul’s level.
Well, I’m not sure I;m saying it’s a 20 game difference. More like a 14 game difference.
And yes, the difference is that great IMO. CP3 with 3 all-stars for virtually an entire season won 1 less game than Kobe with 1 All star for 27 games. Kobe with that one-all-star was 22-5, really 22-4 when you consider that one of the games Gasol played with the team was the one where he played less than 2 minutes before he went down with that ankle. That 22-4 equates to 70 wins right there. So I don’t find it a stretch at all to see Kobe winning 70 if he were a Hornet this year given the quality of the players around him and their relative health.
Kev, West looks pretty legit, but Stojakovic and Chandler seem like products of Paul’s play to me (this year at least). And anyway, Fish and Odom are more or less a wash statistically when compared to those two. I’m not a hoops expert but neither one of their supporting casts strikes me as much better than the other’s.
MODI, Nice article. I fully agree with you on CP3, he is deserving. But it was Kobe’s time and he too is most deserving. I have run out of arguments to keep it from him, he is not as selfish as he use to be. He is a better teammate. I think he is the smartest player in the league, interms of basketball awareness. His skills are ungodly.
I agree with KevD, if you denied Kobe this year, the value of the award would come into question. Still the vote should have been closer, the resurgence of Peja and the emergence of Tyson is directly related to the effectiveness of Chris Paul.
Kevdog, hope all is well, good to hear from you, and you are correct, I just KNEW that you would disagree! I’d expect nothing less. Some thoughts:
– Your points about defense are good ones which I probably didn’t factor in completely. Now Paul did lead the league in steals which is part of the defensive package. How many does he give up? I will start watching and analyzing that side of the ball more closely…
– I guess that the crux of our disagreement is right here: Who has the better supporting cast? I believe that the Lakers do. You believe that Hornets do. At the beginning of the year, most so-called experts also believed the Lakers did. What it comes down to is how much is Paul responsible for others success? I believe that it is Paul who manufactures those alley-oops for Tyson Chandler, those open shots for Peja, and many of those 16-foot open looks for David West. Peja is not that same guy from Sactown, but he still can shoot. I also find the Laker’s bench and depth far superior to the Hornets, With Radmonovic, Ariza, Vucajic, Walton, Farmar, Turiaf — thet roll 11-DEEP when Bynum is healthy. Credit to Kupchak again.
– your Lakers are shooting over 60% and should have a bigger lead going into the half
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Imhotep, I understand the “it’s Kobe’s time” thing and on some-level feel good about his vindication although I get KevDogs “fuck the voters” sentiment as well. What would be really nice though is if after this year the criteria could be altered from which superstar has the best GM. That’s the big picture…
MODI, I know you’re feeling good about Kupchak, but step back for a moment. This is the same Kupchak the fans call Kupcake, and have been trying to get rid of for the past 4 years. He got blamed for not getting Dwade in the Shaq trade. He got roasted for drafting Bynum, and for not trading him for Kidd. He got lambasted for not surrounding Kobe with talent. Now he is the MVP !??
Let’s give credit where it’s due, the GM of the Grizz (don’t know his name) he has a small market team, with a bunch of youngsters (rookie contracts) and an owner that needed to dump salaries. So he gives alway their only allstar caliber player for Kwame, a rookie pg, and a retired player. That trade had more to do with the desperation of the Grizz that any shrewd negotiating by Kupchak… Big picture, dust off the parade route around Staple Center.
And I was just about to ask, “Where the %$!* is Kevdog?” and he reappears!
Took an MVP from his main man Kobe to bring him out tho. Welcome back, bro!
“He got blamed for not getting Dwade in the Shaq trade. He got roasted for drafting Bynum, and for not trading him for Kidd. He got lambasted for not surrounding Kobe with talent. Now he is the MVP !??”
Imhotep, just caught this. Miami wasn’t giving up D-Wade. Considering he got Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, that is pretty good since the history of these blockbuster trades (see Barkely, Kareem, Wilt) when a superstar wants out is that you get 10 cents on the dollar. Kup got two solid younger guys. He may have gotten roasted for drafing Bynum and not trading for Kidd… BUT HE WAS RIGHT!!! A great GM doesn’t cave into fan and media pressure. As for the Gasol trade, if Kup doesn’t get credit, then how come 28 other teams could provide a better offer?
In the end Kups patience was his biggest virtue. However, he did make one terrible move that went unmentioned: Caron Butler for Kwame Brown… however the Gasol trade undid that mistake…
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