Spotes Notes, 7.23.07: Goodell Orders Vick Not to Report; Little-Known Law Change Brings Feds Into Vick Case; Donaghy and Pandora; Bonds Fall Indictment?; Blank on Vick; Emmitt Smith and Dog Fighting
July 23, 2007 by dwil
More NEW: NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has ordered Michael Vick not to report to training camp until the NFL has reviewed the indictment:
“While it is for the criminal justice system to determine your guilt or innocence, it is my responsibility as commissioner of the National Football League to determine whether your conduct, even if not criminal, nonetheless violated league policies, including the Personal Conduct Policy,” Goodell said in a statement released by the NFL.
NEW: A little-reported change in laws regarding dog fighting may affect, or be behind federal investigators sudden involvement in the Michael Vick case.Eight days into the Michael Vick dog fighting investigation by Surry county officials, George Bush signed into law making dog fighting a felony:
Under federal law, dogfighting was a misdemeanor when investigators searched NFL quarterback Michael Vick’s property on April 25 .
Eight days later, President Bush signed a bill that made it a felony.
The timing of those events could affect the severity of the penalties anyone charged in the case might face, now that federal agents have begun their own investigation into what went on at 1915 Moonlight Road . It’s not yet clear which version of the federal law would apply if charges are filed.
Poindexter expressed concern again Friday that Vick’s celebrity status may have influenced the federal government’s decision to step in. Vick, a Newport News native and standout player at Virginia Tech, is the Atlanta Falcons’ quarterback.
Poindexter asked whether federal prosecutors would have gotten involved in the same case if it didn’t involve a star athlete.
Under the old federal law, dogfighting carried a maximum prison sentence of one year per animal. The new law raised that to a maximum of three years in prison.
“That makes my questions about this all the more relevant, I think,” Poindexter said.
—————————–
Does Donaghy hold the key to the NBA’s Pandora’s Box?
James Fanelli of the New York Post reports that former NBA referee Tim Donaghy who allegedly fixed NBA games for the Mafia received death threats:
Three Manatee County Sheriff’s squad cars screeched up to the Bradenton, Fla., home of terrified former NBA official Tim Donaghy to investigate menacing telephone calls against him.
“Our concern is for his safety and his family’s safety,” said Sheriff’s Lt. Robert Mealy. “We are definitely going to share any information we get with the FBI.”
The rogue ref’s family is even urging him to enter the federal witness-protection program, one friend said.
“They think he will be killed if he goes to prison, or even if he doesn’t, just because he’s probably talking, cooperating, and that’s ratting on the mob,” the pal said. “I don’t think [the Mafia] would take that very well….
Yesterday, “he received some threatening phone calls, and he wanted them documented,” Mealy said. “I know Mr. Donaghy was concerned.”
“[Relatives] are very concerned for his safety,” the friend added. “I think they knew something serious was going on, but not like this, not this big, whole life-or-death issue with the Mafia. I mean, it’s the Gambinos.”
It is said that Donaghy is set to bring down anyone and everyone in exchange for a plea bargained deal. Donaghy’s testimony is potentially dangerous to the Mafia, hence the death threats. But much it is much more potentially damaging to the NBA. Fanelli writes that Donaghy might just bring down other referees, players, and coaches:
The disgraced ref is said to be set to spill all – threatening to bring down anyone and everyone with him, sources said. He’ll be naming names of other refs, coaches, players and game “validators,” who sit unobtrusively in the stands to review calls on the court, the source said.
“There are other allegations of gambling that the FBI will run down,” based on Donaghy’s talk so far, one source said.
“Everybody’s pointing a finger at everyone else.”
Donaghy’s name came to the attention of feds during wiretap probes of Gambino mobsters.
Donaghy, 40, resigned from the NBA shortly after this past season amid then-undisclosed allegations that he bet on games he officiated.
Feds have not yet revealed which games they are probing.
Several friends in Cape May, N.J., where his parents summer, said Donaghy’s co-workers grew suspicious of his behavior about three years ago, when he would offer to trade free tickets to certain games with some refs in exchange for others – and then suddenly renege.
“He just started screwing them,” one friend said. “Tickets started going missing, misplaced . . . It was no longer, ‘Hey, Tim’s kind of an a- – hole.’ It became, ‘Tim is f- – - ing with the NBA.’ And that’s when they stopped trusting him completely.”
FYI: Weird Donaghy stats: totals, 184.5 or less – 10-2; point spreads: 0-4.5, home favorite – 5-12. point spreads, 5-9.5, home underdog – 1-7. Do these stats necessarily mean anything? No. I passed these along to Mike Francesca on Mike and the Mad Dog (if you heard him talking about these stats, that was right after my call to the sports desk). Francesca raises the very valid point that every game in which Donaghy participated will have to be reviewed. However, these games might be a good starting point.
I also sampled 20 out of 69 referees’ stats for against the spread home team favorite records. Out of the 20 I sampled a whopping 17 referees’ records, including Donaghy’s, had the home team failing to best the spread.
One last thing, Ronnie Nunn is the head of NBA referees. What is going to happen to him?
Bonds to be indicted?
According to T.J. Quinn of the New York Daily News the San Francisco U.S., Attorneys Office feels they will have enough evidence on Barry Bonds to indict him in the fall of this year:
“They seem to feel they have a strong case,” said one source, speaking on the condition of anonymity.
Another source said he believed prosecutors could secure an indictment if they sought one now, but that they would rather take the additional time to strengthen it. The grand jurors have not met for at least three weeks and have been instructed that they will not reconvene until September. Bonds is being investigated for perjury and tax evasion.
“If the case is 90% now, there’s no reason not to go for 100%,” the source said. “They aren’t just waiting around for Greg Anderson.”….
Major League Baseball sources have said they believe that if Bonds is indicted, commissioner Bud Selig, who attended last night’s game in Milwaukee, will suspend him, an action that is sure to meet resistance from the MLB Players Association. Even MLB sources concede they would probably lose a grievance before an arbitrator, but that Selig wants to force the union to defend a player known to have used steroids, whether he knew what he was taking or not.
Vick decision coming soon
The Atlanta Falcons report for training camp Wednesday but expect a decision on Michael Vick’s status with the team by tomorrow. Peter King, in his Sports Illustrated “Monday Morning Quarterback” blog-report says he knows that the NFL is leaving the “what to do” aspect of Vick’s level of participation up to Arthur Blank.
Here’s what King feels will happen:
Teams can levy suspensions of up to four weeks without pay for conduct detrimental to the team. My belief is that Blank is likely to do this to Vick. Players do not get paid their salary during training camp, so it’s more likely than not that Blank would levy such a sanction for the first four weeks of the regular season, which would take Vick out of the Falcons games at Minnesota and Jacksonville, then at home against Carolina and Houston. Under this scenario, he would be eligible to return Oct. 7, at Tennessee … assuming there are no further sanctions from Goodell and the league office. After that, depending on the status of the case (and when it goes to trial), Blank could either have Vick return to the team and begin practicing, or he could give Vick a paid leave of absence because he may feel his presence would be more of a distraction than an aid to winning.
Peter King potshots Emmitt Smith’s ‘Michael Vick comment’
King also took a moment in Monday Morning QB to rip Emmitt Smith for comments the NFL’s all-time rushing leader made concerning the Vick case. After being inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame Smith said the following:
“He’s the biggest fish in the whole doggone pond right now, so they’re putting the squeeze on him [Vick] to get to everyone else. Now, granted he might have been to a dogfight a time or two, maybe five times, maybe 20 times, may have bet some money, but he’s not the one you’re after. He’s just the one who’s going to take the fall — publicly.’
King retorts:
1. Nice to see Emmitt knows so much about the federal government’s case. Didn’t anyone ever tell him, “When there’s an important issue out there, give an educated opinion if you have a good idea what you’re talking about. If you’re not sure what you’re talking about, the only thing you can do by opening your mouth is look like you’re 11 years old.”
2. It sounds very much like Smith empathizes with Vick’s plight and doesn’t find it very objectionable that Vick might have put a few bucks down on dogfights. Is he serious? Is there anything justifiable about Vick going to a single dogfight, or gambling a dime on a dogfight? Should the feds, once they had evidence from four corroborating witnesses that placed Vick in the middle of one dogfight after another, have ignored the evidence and not gone after him?
I have a bad feeling about Smith’s tenure at ESPN, and it hasn’t even started. His comments on Vick are so idiotic and inappropriate that a few people at the Worldwide Leader have to be thinking, “Uh-oh. What if we’ve gone and hired someone who’s very famous but not very smart?’
Taking a step back and looking at Smith’s comment in context with others made along the same lines, there is something deeper at work than just dog fighting. Clinton Portis, from Mississippi, made similar remarks as Smith, a Floridian.
In Untangling Michael Vick from the Dogs I touched on the cultural and regional issues surrounding dog fighting. Smith, like Portis, do not see the dog fighting issue as important as other people. Smith, known as one of sports’ “good guys” is surely aware of his reputation in regards to making this contentious statement (if he knows what’s good for his reputation, we might be hearing about or reading a retraction by Smith in the near future). Yet, Smith unabashedly uttered his remark. It appears there is something going on in the South – at least – that is being left unsaid.
Smith’s comment, like Portis’ also seems to imply that there are people involved in dog fighting much higher up the public perception’s food chain than Vick. I wonder whether John Goodwin’s pointing to a sheriff’s involvement in a dog fighting case in which he was investigated in Tennessee (as he did in my interview with him) is the real tip of the iceberg of dog fighting rings around the country.
All these remarks beg to question: are we talking about police, deputies, mayors, congressmen, and more? Is Vick the face because of his popularity, plus that he is a big enough name to allow others people in prominent positions to hide?
King’s reaction is right in line with most others regarding the Vick case. However, from some of the whispers out there, there appears to be a larger dog fighting storm on the horizon, It remains to be seen whether this storm will pick up steam and expose more about who is involved in dog fighting, or if the storm simply dissipates and ends with the Falcons quarterback.
“James Fanelli of the New York Post reports that former NBA referee Tim Donaghy who allegedly fixed NBA games for the Mafia reviewed death threats:”
Received??
Peter King is a douche.
Emmitt may be right… he may be right about people dragging Vick’s name in the mud because of his popularity and his money. He’s not right though about one thing, and that thing is no matter how popular someone is, it’s still an illegal activity what Vick is accused of. If Vick is immediately guilty of anything, it’s allowing himself to be around people that would put him in this situation.
Smith is being ridiculed for his comments, just as Portis was. Both got bashed by the MSM. You point out Peter King’s hatchet job on Emmitt (because I’m sure Peter King “knows enough about the federal case” to allow for comments of his own), but that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Smith is getting hammered on ESPN. He’s getting hammered on Deadspin. Once again, no one is allowed to defend Vick.
Once again, look at this comments and tell me what’s wrong with what Emmitt said:
“He’s the biggest fish in the whole doggone pond right now, so they’re putting the squeeze on him [Vick] to get to everyone else.”
He is the biggest fish, right? Smith thinks they (the Feds) are trying to get him to roll over. Sounds reasonable. Isn’t that Fanelli is saying about Donaghy?
Now, granted he might have been to a dogfight a time or two, maybe five times, maybe 20 times, may have bet some money, but he’s not the one you’re after. He’s just the one who’s going to take the fall — publicly.’
Again, how is this wrong? I don’t agree with Emmitt, I think Vick is the primary target, but why the ridicule for Smith’s comments?
Peter King also included the sentiments of former-Klansman-turned-Senator Robert Byrd in his quotes of the week. King is using Byrd’s statements about a place reserved in hell for dog fighters to solidify his own opinion. I wonder how many people flooded his mailbag and pointed out the irony in Byrd’s statements, as I did. I also wonder if King will man up tomorrow and answer the criticism in his Tuesday Edition.
I don’t see anywhere in Emmitt’s comments where he’s defending Mike Vick. It’s to the point where you HAVE to condemn Vick or the media will crucify you. Emmitt said that Vick may be guilty, but he’s not the ultimate target. It’s funny how the media thought it was possible that Vick’s co-defendants would roll on him in exchange of a lighter sentence, but Emmitt suggests that the Feds may be trying to get Vick to roll on someone higher up, and Peter King goes apeshit? This case continuously makes me laugh.
T3-
good catch on my brain fart… duly changed.
Jason S.-
… saw that. I thought about adding that about King, but wanted to focus on Smith and not get into superfluous debates… thanks for letting peeps know about it here.
Jason,
Man I did the EXACT same thing as soon as I saw that. I dished him an old KKK quote from Byrd and seriously asked him if he was using that to solidify his own opinion. WHAT A JOKE! I still don’t see what about Emmitt’s statement was wrong. I do, however, disagree with him. I don’t think they’re trying to squeeze Vick to squeal, they’re trying to squeeze everyone else to get to Vick. Vick is the biggest fish, and the Feds WANT him, not everyone else. It’ll be a triumph if they get to him and have all the other guys cut a deal. Why would they want to cut a deal with Vick when the public only cares about him goign to jail?
King leads with sarcasm and follows it up with conjecture. He doesn’t provide the context. What question was Emmitt Smith answering? Was that all he said?
The psychopathic racial personality is alive and well.
From ESPN:
Iverson, in his interview with the Daily Press, said he didn’t think pro athletes should just cut ties with old friends.
“You know, I don’t think it’s fair to say, ‘Stay away from the people you grew up with,’” he said. “It’s hard to have a relationship with people once you’re already rich. You have to have a relationship with the same people you grew up with.
“But at the same time, you’ve got to make sure the guys are not hurting you. You’ve got to be smart enough to know when they’re hurting you and when they’re helping you.”
COMMON SENSE.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2944662&campaign=rss&source=NFLHeadlines
Check out Emmitt’s interview. Very interesting. Phuck that decontextualizing buster at SI. Watch for yourself…
Initial question setting the context- Should MV7 take a paid leave of absence?
The MSM soft-peddling has begun, from the pen of an NBA writer no less, here: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070722smith,1,5392644.column?coll=cs-home-headlines
I am at a loss how Sam can be so glib as the game which provides him with employment hangs in the balance. The credibility of an entire sport has not been this tenuous since the Black Sox Scandal, and the senior NBA writers are content to remain silent or to minimize Donaghy’s crimes with flippant prose.
Problem is, dog fighting is a crime. Doing anything illegal across state lines is a federal crime… I think, I’m no lawyer. So if Vick did dog fighting and transport that is a federal crime.
But, with politics and media, everything is suspect. Does any politician say anything remotely important without some sort of agenda or spin? Does the media report anything without spin? So on one hand, if Vick knew about the happenings at a home he owned(which from what I’ve read, if he didn’t, he’s about the most naive person in the world) then he deserves punishment. But since ulterior motives of federal agents (and by extension, politicians) and the MSM are always suspect, it really does look like this whole thing is overblown.
But it all comes down to personal responsibility as well. If you get pulled over and there is something in your car that shouldn’t be there, then it is your problem. Even if there are five other people in the car. So even a ‘I didn’t know about it’ excuse seems flimsy to me. But then again, I’m no lawyer.
This little piece was the least opinionated thing I’ve read about the situation, as you just brought together info and passed it on. I’d like one day to get information from news sources and not opinions sprinkled with little nuggets of truth.
Everyone likes to remark about Emmit’s comments but also leave out his advice to athlete’s about the friends they bring with them.
He said something to the affect, that not all your old friends should be going with you to where you’re going. He mentioned that someone of MV’s stature is a business institution and needs to protect that. I thought it was some pretty sober comments.
Emmit has never gotten much credit for his words in the media for whatever reason.
Dwil– No problem
Ap– Glad to hear that King’s getting called out. He has a history of glossing over complaint letters and not really addressing the points brought up by his critics. Like I said, I’m interested to see if he even addresses this.
Dear stopmikelupica,
Here’s Emmit Smith’s comments regarding the indictment of Michael Vick:
‘Now, granted he might have been to a dogfight a time or two, maybe five times, maybe 20 times, may have bet some money, but he’s not the one you’re after. He’s just the one who’s going to take the fall — publicly.’
In response, you wrote:
Again, how is this wrong? I don’t agree with Emmitt, I think Vick is the primary target, but why the ridicule for Smith’s comments?
Well, I’m glad that’s the part you don’t agree with when there is so much more to disagree with. Since you asked… allow me to annotate Mr. Smith’s original speech and then you might realize what was wrong with his comments:
Now, granted he might have been to a (illegal) dogfight a time or two, maybe five times (he was involved in a crime), maybe 20 times (it is a crime in VA to even attend a dog fight… attending dogfights more makes it MORE of a crime, not less of one), may have bet some money (illegally bet money… just ask the IRS), but he’s not the one you’re after (he just owned the property where the 17 dog carcasses were dug up, owned the dog breeding business MV7, LLC, and owned all of the 53 seized pit bulls with scars all over them… but he’s not the one you’re after). He’s just the one who’s going to take the fall — publicly (he’s going to jail).
Now… do you see what’s wrong with Emmitt’s comments? Hell, maybe now even “dwil” might see what’s wrong with Emmitt’s comments… nah, that’s asking a little too much. I did notice, however, that dwil has toned down his rhetoric on this issue after promising everyone that Vick wouldn’t be indicted. Hey dwil, “Shhhhhhhh!”
So Peter King has resorted to using the words of a former Exalted Cyclops of the Ku Klux Klan to justify his position? Hmmmmmm…..reveals a little bit about ole Mr. King there. Giving credence to a man who has referred to black people in this country as “race mongrels”…….well, well, well…like my daddy says “you don’t know’em, like I know’em”.
Mr. John Doe, thanks for adding those enlightening parathetic thoughts… I had no idea what Emmitt Smith was really saying when I was just reading his unedited quote. Thank goodness you were there to fill in the non-gaps with your rhetoric.
I’m still confused, though. Even with your filled-in thoughts, I still don’t see what wrong with Emmitt’s statement. Is it the fact that Emmitt failed to detailed the accusations against Vick with as much certainly as you did? That’s probably because Emmitt just believes in “innocent until proven guilty”, more so than your unAmerican ass. Though I have no doubt you love to wave the American flag around, because you think that’s what it takes to be patriotic!
Or is it that Emmitt didn’t get into as much gory detail as you did? Because you would want to make sure Emmitt doesn’t forget any of the small details, like how the American justice system is suppose to work.
Of course, thanks to people like you, I have no doubt that even if Vick is cleared of charges you’ll be there to remind us that he’s nothing more than a dog abuser, and that he just “brought” himself an acquittal. Right?
Hold on…Peter King says “Both men can justify acting before Vick’s trial in federal court because Vick insisted to Goodell and Blank he had no involvement at the property in question, an assertion that has been shot full of holes by four corroborating witnesses in the case.”
Wait a damn minute……so the word of 4 unknown persons who have not been questioned by attorneys representing Vick, that’s now the gospel?? Hell, I can get 4 people to lie, and have done it in the past….WTF?? And why are these so-called journalists acting as if they know word-for-word WHAT the actual exact dialogue was between Goodell & Vick?? Is there a audiotape that I missed?? Could someone link that audio please?? Thanks!
John Doe,
Nope still don’t see it. One could argue that Emmitt is saying that Vick is in fact guilty, but may not be the kingpin. So, I don’t get your point.
J Doe (regenold)-
Surry County animal control officer James Smith said no dog showed signs of scarring or dog fighting…. also, for the 150th time, the I based my reporting and commentaries on the fact that that the Falcons and NFL officials said there would be no indictment of Vick.
Please do not trot out the tired, Chris Mortensen rumor, nonsense. It is impossible, with the tenor of reporting at ESPN and that Mortensen was correct in stating that three other individuals were named on the indictment and that Davon Boddie was not one of them means he was reporting accurately.
ANYONE, who in the face of the news given, reported that Vick would be indicted – that is, the opposite of news reports – was transparently biased.
(BTW, this is the final time I’m going to address this issue.)
The Stews said the Falcons would be making an announcement at 6pm.
Miranda,
It doesn’t look like anything is going to happen. We can’t figure out where ESPN was hearing this from, but all our local ties are telling us nothing is going to happen today.
Sportsdiva,
Maybe they’re just so anxious for the “picnic” to begin they can’t help but hope its today.
I know right!
They are all camped out at Flower Branch just waiting for it to go down…luckily they have a bunch of clowns out there to entertain them. Thank you PETA for entertaining the lowly journalists!!! LOL
How many is it…..40? They couldn’t muster up 100?
stopmikelupica,
Juries cannot be “bought.” Even OJ finally was nailed in the civil trial. The Duke Lacrosse team did not “buy” their way out of that trial, but it did help that they had a very competent defense — and it did help that they were innocent (not just not guilty). I’m confident that Mike Vick will get a fair trial and his millions of dollars will pay for a more than adequate defense. I am prepared to accept the jury’s verdict… are you?
Now back to Vick… he’s an American citizen and he’s technically innocent until proven guilty by a jury of his peers. That said, I find it somewhat amazing that you jump at the chance to defend Michael Dwayne Vick, yet Vick himself has been mum on the topic while his family, his team, his coach, the team’s owner, and the entire NFL have been besieged on this issue. What has he said??? Oh yeah… I owned the property, but was never there and that friends and family have taken advantage of me. That doesn’t sound like “dogfighting is a crime and I would never engage in such a despicable and cruel activity.”
Hey stopmikelupica, you knew that Vick owns the company MV7, LLC which was a registered dog breeder (breeding pit bulls and presa canarios), didn’t you? Well, isn’t it odd that after the Feds seized the 53 pit bulls that Vick or Vick’s attorneys never showed up to argue against it — or filed a motion in opposition to the seizure. If he didn’t do anything wrong, then why doesn’t he demand that the Feds return “his property?” What did Vick actually do?… well Vick hastily had his website VickK9Kennels.com closed down and put the subject VA property up for sale. You did know about the website, stopmikelupica, didn’t you? I guess you knew then that the website had pictures of Mike Vick holding pit bull puppies (even though he alleges that he never visited the VA property where the dog breeding business was at). If he didn’t do anything wrong, then why did he quickly remove the website? Come on… think… I’m sure you can make up a good excuse.
While you’re thinking, why don’t you ask yourself why all of those buildings are painted completely black behind Vick’s completely WHITE house and high white fence. I guess the investigators made up the story about there being a second floor in that black building behind Vick’s VA home and there being a bloody carpet and blood splattered in the room. Is it possible that the blood might have come from one of those 17 dogs buried in his backyard? Why was the building painted completely black, stopmikelupica? Come on… think… I can tell from your writing that you’re not that dumb.
Hey stopmikelupica, I’ve presented a bunch of evidence that points to Vick’s guilt, now why don’t you tell me all of the evidence that points to his innocence. Tell me about all of that exculpatory evidence you’ve been able to uncover in between blogging about why Vick is innocent. I know Vick hasn’t said much.. but he’s probably just waiting for the right time to pull a Perry Mason on all of us and prove that he was absolutely innocent… although that’s not a very nice think to do to his team, his coach, the owner, the fans, the Vick defenders… is it?
One more thing stopmikelupica; did you ever stop to think that if Vick was actually not running a dog fighting business from his VA property and that he was breeding pit bulls for legitimate purposes that he might come forward with all of the people that bought pit bulls from Mike Vick’s kennels and were happy PET owners? He had a dog breeding license (now expired) through the company he owned, MV7 LLC, so where are all of the happy Mike Vick pit bull pet owners? Where are the bills of sale from this alleged legitimate pit bull breeding business… he ran a business, the Feds seized 53 pit bulls, this has been going on since 2001… so where are all the legitimate bills of sale from this allegedly legitimate business???
stopmikelupica… are you still there????
I’m not gonna speak for SML, but I will say that I enjoy when people break their arms patting themselves on the back as if they’ve made a point, when they really haven’t:)
Mr. John Doe,
Vick addressed the events prior to the actual indictment at the NBA draft.
What is ‘technically’ innocent until proven guilty?? This isn’t a technicality it is an important principal of our judicial system.
Wow, another person that thinks ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is important…
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/Commentary/Columns/2007/harkush2206.htm
sorry, obviously meant NFL draft
So the Surry County prosecutor…who could just easily latch on to the federal case….is NOT pursuing an indictment of Mike Vick when the grand jury meets tomorrow……interesting….and I hear Mike Vick just retained Billy Martin….let the games begin.
The 2Live Stews just reported that Michael Vick will take a leave of absence from the Falcons.
Dwil -
Where did you read “Surry County animal control officer James Smith said no dog showed signs of scarring or dog fighting…???” You claim to be a journalist but don’t quote your source? I don’t remember reading any account by any animal control officer present that stated such a thing. So I’m supposed to believe you, dwil, and your uncited source over the actual forfeiture complaint? Please read paragraph 9 of said Complaint, which states:
“Many of the pit bulldogs recovered or observed in the search had scars and injuries consistent with injuries sustained in dog fighting.” Is it possible, dwil, — if your quote is actually even accurate — that James Smith only saw a some of the dogs taken into custody and did not examine ALL of the dogs taken into custody? I still want to know your source on this quote, dwil.
By the way, what make you think I get any of my information from Chris Mortensen? This is the same guy that claimed he knew Vick would be indicted? I knew that Vick would be indicted (not 100% sure, but very sure, none-the-less). Vick owned that house, owned the dog breeding company, and owned the dogs… he had a website named VicksK9Kennels… yet acts like he’s never heard of this breed of dog. Pit Bull… huh… duh, what’s a pit bull??? MV7, LLC … what does “MV7″ stand for?
Dwil, why don’t you lay out for all of your fans all of the exculpatory evidence your investigative reporting has uncovered? Why don’t you tell us how this house and dog breeding business have been there since 2001 and Vick didn’t know about it. Why don’t you investigate those drug store employees down the street from the subject property are lying when they say that they saw Mike Vick there all of the time buying veterinary supplies. Why don’t you look up a tax return for MV7, LLC and see if Vick (or Vick’s accountant) tried to deduct any dead dogs? Why don’t you do an investigation into why the website VicksK9Kennels.com is registered to the same company as MikeVick.com — and why (if innocent) he so hastily had the website removed. Why don’t you find out where he got the pit bull from that was pictured on the website before he removed it — don’t you even wonder if the pitbull was from the kennels on the property he claimed he never visited? Why don’t you investigate what happened to all of those pit bulls since 2001 — who were they sold to — were any of them actually even sold to anyone? Why did Mike Vick only specialize in Pit Bulls and Presa Canarios (two fighting breeds), and not raise any other dogs in his kennel? Why don’t you find out who built those black buildings behind his home and ask why they are painted completely black? Maybe Boddie is a carpeneter and built them himself and painted them himself… have you investigated?
Dwil, I read a lot of opinion from you and very little fact. Through other sources I’ve read about a lot of inculpatory evidence and haven’t read about much exculpatory evidence. Dwil, let me ask you, do you personally think dogfighting should be a crime? Maybe you support Vick because you feel that dogfighing is not a crime. I’m sure, as a journalist, you’ve reviewed some of those pictures showing examples of pit bulls AFTER a dog fight. Why don’t you take a look at this site and tell me what you think:
http://www.workingpitbull.com/dogfighting.htm
Mr. John Doe,
“Dwil, let me ask you, do you personally think dogfighting should be a crime? Maybe you support Vick because you feel that dogfighing is not a crime. I’m sure, as a journalist, you’ve reviewed some of those pictures showing examples of pit bulls AFTER a dog fight. Why don’t you take a look at this site and tell me what you think:”
You aren’t seriously asking him this are you?? Seriously? Have you read any of his posts & comments over the last week?? His was sick of putting disclaimers up, but he still did, lest people like you keep trying to play the ‘emotion’ card. And to employ the PETA tactics and ask him to look at that graphic stuff…come on, that’s so unecessary.
Sportsdiva,
I missed it, did they announce a leave of absence for Vick?
Fox5 Atlanta is apparently reporting that Vick will be taking a leave of absense. Hard to think it’s a coincidence that this announcement comes the same day he hires a lawyer. I’m glad he’s going to be taking his time to set up his defense.
Yeah, its being reported by Fox, but nothing official yet from him or the Falcons. I’m sure a press conference will go down tomorrow.
Damn, what will I do on Sundays now??
This will probably cause even more fury seeing as he’s still getting his salary.
Doe-
However, evidence presented in the Pilot article written by Linda McNatt, contradicts earlier reports of numerous dogs with scarring or other signs of dog fighting:
The dogs are being exercised and well cared for,” said Harry White, chief animal control officer in Suffolk….
Fourteen of the dogs are in Surry, said animal control officer James Smith, and even when they were first brought in, they were healthy and appeared well cared for.
Poindexter said that is true of most of the dogs.
“There was one dog that was scarred,” he said, “and another dog was taken to the vet immediately because of a birth defect.”
Sportsdiva -
Did you look at the site, or have you decided to just bury your head in the sand? I don’t work for PETA or the Humane Society, and I actually just “stumbled” on that website after doing a Google search. If you read the site, it is actually critical of PETA and shows books on dogfighting. It does however, also show graphic pictures of dogs after a fight and graphic literary discriptions of dog fights.
Listen, Fox News claims they don’t show pictures of the war because they don’t want the public to be upset. We should be upset, we should care that our soldiers are being killed and maimed in what has turned into a civil war. My point is that if you don’t realize how disgusting this stuff actually is, then it is hard for many to realize what is at stake here. Some people glorify war and some people glorify dog fighting.
You might be surprised, but I am a Madden EA Sports fan and have been playing the game since college — over the last couple years I would almost jump to Atlanta so that I could find out how fast Michael Vick was. I actually thought that he — although not perfect — was okay abd not a mess like his brother and not in trouble like Pacman. This news came as a complete surprise to me… I really didn’t care much about the AirTran stuff, or the secret water bottle compartment. What do I care if he smokes weed… but this, this is completely different. There is just too much evidence for you to ignore it, Sportsdiva.
I don’t regularly read dwil’s posts, but I did read his “Shhhh!” piece. I find it hard to rationalize how someone that claims they love animals would defend Vick. Sportsdiva, do you think everything is a lie? Do you think all of the accounts about Vick from 4 cooperating witnesses is all made up? Not one witness, but four witnesses, Sportsdiva. If you believe Vick is innocent of these charges, then why hasn’t he come forward with evidence? You will recall in the Duke case that the lacrosse players were tripping over themselves to provide DNA samples… one even provided his cell phone records, voluntarily. They answered investigators questions without their attorney present. Square that with Mike Vick’s actions.
Do you really believe that he didn’t know anything about this property that he has owned since 2001? Do you think his cousin Bodie wouldn’t have mentioned any of this to him?
Dwil,
The amazing thing about your link is that the damn dog pictured in the article with SCARS ALL OVER ITS FACE is one of Vick’s dogs. In addition, you cleverly cite an article from May 2007 when this investigation was just beginning. Why don’t you cite me something from July? The same article also mentions blood spatters on the wall as I said in my posting. Since then, Poindexter has stated he was shocked by what the Feds uncovered on Vick’s property and Poindexter’s son (also a lawyer) has come out to defend his father and said that he will do the right thing.
FOR ALL- THERE IS A NEW (OLD, BUT NOT KNOWN TO ME) PIECE OF VICK INFO I FOUND SEARCHING FOR THE LINK TO THE QUOTE FOR MY PREVIOUS COMMENT… IT HAS TO DO WITH A LAW CHANGE AND DOG FIGHTING….
Also, Surry County announced they are not indicting Vick…
Well John Doe, its gonna be interesting to see what Billy Martin does with all this “evidence”. Something tells me what you call “evidence” will be called justification when all is said and done.
That’s fascinating, John Doe. It sounds like you want me to try Michael Vick, and pass judgment on whether he’s innocent or guilty. I’m not on a jury, and I haven’t even seen or heard either the prosecution’s case or the defense’s case. And I have never commented that I believe Vick is innocent or guilty. So what’s your point?
You want me to say he’s guilty? Not until I see all the evidence from both sides.
I said, in comment #3 that Emmitt Smith, like Clinton Portis, is being hammered in the press for not his comments regarding Vick.
I don’t see what’s wrong with Emmitt Smith’s comments. I asked you already – is it because he’s not as convinced of Vick’s guilt as you are? Is it because he didn’t lay out the case against Vick in gory detail like you did? What is wrong with Emmitt Smith’s comments?
Doe-
I wrote the piece the quote is in, in May (24th). The dogs were taken from the property in May. The photo was added the following day.
You read one commentary I wrote and think you know how I think and feel – wonderful.
PLUS YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO THIS (for obvious reasons):
Please do not trot out the tired, Chris Mortensen rumor, nonsense. It is impossible, with the tenor of reporting at ESPN and that Mortensen was correct in stating that three other individuals were named on the indictment and that Davon Boddie was not one of them means he was reporting accurately.
ANYONE, who in the face of the news given, reported that Vick would be indicted – that is, the opposite of news reports – was transparently biased.
Apparently, those who are transparently biased include YOU.
——————————-
AGAIN,As I just wrote, Surry County is not indicting Vick….
Now, I know you’ll respond with some nonsensical vitriol, but I’m through with you.
Have a Coke and a smile.
Dwil,
Poindexter said he won’t seek an indictment tomorrow. He didn’t say he won’t indict MV. Let’s be careful. It’s possible he wants more evidence or time to go over it. It’s possible he never will indict.
——————————————————————-
In other news Fox Sports is reporting that Vick won’t be welcome at training camp.
Basically Gerald Poindexter is saying “the feds can go get put on front street by themselves, I will not be having that inevitable press conference where I explain why Michael Vick just got acquitted. Its just not worth my time.”
John Doe,
I believe in ‘innocent until proven guilty’. That’s what I believe in.
I would just like to say Vick deserves more support from the Falcon fanbase.
Cornelius,
Fox 5 actually said “not welcome at training camp”? If he’s taking a leave of absence, he obviously won’t be there….are they implying that for some reason he could still be at training camp, but no one wants him there? That statement doesn’t make sense to me, but then again the media lately hasn’t made a lot of sense.
And that sentiment doesn’t vibe with Joe Horn’s statement either. Although it may mean the brass don’t want him, but his fellow laborers do.
Fox Sports (Jay Glazer) is reporting that Goodell has said he won’t be welcome at training camp. I assume they don’t want more picketing, and players don’t get paid for training camp, so even a suspension means they can show up with some exceptions.
———————————————————————-
To clarify the Surrey County situation:
Poindexter said last week he will most likely seek an indictment at the grand jury meeting in September. The next meeting after tomorrow is September. All that is being reported is that he won’t seek indictment tomorrow.
That statement also doesn’t vibe with D-Hall or Mughelli’s statements, or Brooking either. I would bet my soul that every single vet wants him there and is not happy with a leave, especially if they believe its possible that its a forced leave.
DWil–
That stuff about the Prez is pretty shady. One might ponder whether he might have more important things on his plate, but then again, they didn’t care when I was there, so why start now. It’s just another in a litany of contradictions in this terribly misguided presidency. Protect the unborn, but when they turn 18, ship them off to death in the desert by the thousands. Protect pitbulls in Virginia, but slaughter animals along with their habitat in droves in the ANWR. Sign a dogfighting law, but table the Voting Rights Act and the ERA. It’s a callous disregard for basic human autonomy that reeks of staid, pseudo-Enlightenment ideals. He’s on some moral high horse over what an NFL QB might have done to some dozens of dogs, while his lies and duplicity have cost thousands of HUMAN lives.
Sportsdiva–
I’m usually on board with Arkush’s columns. He usually, not always, but usually, handles most everything with a pretty even hand.
These guys play football. Who in their right mind would want Joey Harrington over Vick? Especially after a new coach has been hired to tailor an offense for Vick?
Sorry for the confusion and not stating in the first post that Goodell is saying Vick won’t be welcome. I didn’t mean to make it seem the team wouldn’t welcome him.
Well if that 35 people scared Goodell, then the number that may show up pissed that Vick is being asked to take a leave should scare him quite a bit more.
Any chance the NFLPA is even going to attempt going to bat for Vick? Or is that union as inept and impotent as many have insinuated?
That was just a lame assumption on my part, Miranda. Glazer says it’s so the NFL can have more time to investigate if they want to make an official move at some point.
And no offense, but I’ve been to a Falcons home game, and it doesn’t exactly bring fear to mind.
If Mike Vick wants to play as has been relayed to the public through Joe Horn and the NFLPA does not step up to the plate, it will solidify my opinion of Gene Upshaw’s incompetence.
No Cornelius, I don’t mean the game, I meant the people who are screaming all over the radios about showing up to training camp this Saturday. The game itself?? Oh…..you’ll have access to some prime seats this season for sure. The dome will be about 35,000 short of full.
PM,
Are you implying that the President signing the legislation on animal fighting was in any way motivated by the Vick case?
Would you deny the timing is quite odd, or that far more important legislation might bear his attention, like the VRA and the ERA? I can’t say for sure that it had anything to do with Vick’s case, but the timing is quite odd, and don’t nutpick my post. There are far more important pieces of legislation on his desk, not to mention a full scale, two-front war going on, and he took time out to sign a dogfighting bill? That doesn’t strike you as odd?!
From WDBJ7 (Roanoke, Va.)- this is the entire Associated Press post….
The Surry County prosecutor says embattled NFL star Michael Vick will NOT be indicted when the Surry County grand jury meets tomorrow.
That’s largely because the local dogfighting investigation has taken a back seat to a federal probe.
The Atlanta Falcons quarterback and Virginia native was indicted by the federal government last week and is to be arraigned in Richmond on Thursday.
Surry County Commonwealth’s Attorney Gerald Poindexter says their investigation has been on hiatus since federal officials their first search. Poindexter says he spoke with the US attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia who is prosecuting the federal case today and they are trying to work out how to proceed.
Surry County’s grand jury is scheduled to convene again in September.
Dwil,
That doesn’t change the nature of anything I said above. It’s presumptuous to assume that means he won’t re-start the investigation. It actually says he “trying to work out how to proceed.”
THERE’S MORE NEW STUFF GOODELL JUST TOLD VICK TO STAY AWAY FROM TRAINING CAMP….
PM,
I do think that the legislation is important to this case. It brings up issues as to what laws Vick can be prosecuted under. In my opinion, the uncertainty involved with prosecuting someone under laws that changed this year for alleged events taking place from 2001- April 2007 is a possible explanation for the feds leading with conspiracy rather than the actual underlying crimes.
However, the President can only act on legisation sent to him/her by congress. IIRC, the legislation was overwhelming passes by the Senate and House in March / April.
http://www.hsus.org/legislation_laws/federal_legislation/cruelty_issues/animal_fighting_bill_forward.html
Bush can rightly be criticized for a lot of things, but signing popular bills sent to him by Congress really should not be one of them.
So, I guess I do not find the timing to be odd.
C-
Dude, I just posted the AP release because it was short. You can think of the release how you want.
I got the news from Trey Wingo NFL Live, which, due to their time constraints, is not totally reliable.
The NFLPA has to get involved. Goodell is running this league like his own private Idaho.
If the NFLPA doesn’t step up, it should send the strongest signal yet to the players they need a new union chief.
Dwil,
I only asked because it seemed like a response to what I had posted earlier.
—————————————
Word was that the NFLPA wanted Vick to take the leave of absense because it kept them from having to appeal on his behalf and fight it out. Yes, they suck. They also gave Goodell all the power that he has with the personal conduct policy.
If you look at the last CBA and what the NFLPA never fought for, and what they did, it can’t be clearer how little they care outside of money.
Soup,
“Popular legislation?” I’m not arguing that dogfighting shouldn’t be dealt with severaly; I’m arguing that there ar HUMAN rights at stake, rights to vote, rights to equal employment, not mention the various civil rights that have been trodden upon, and this is the piece of “popular legislation” he signs? No one’s arguing that this legislation doesn’t affect this case, but instead that that fact is exactly what makes its timing seem so suspicious. Moreover, and this why I urged you to read my entire post, not just the part you felt you could pick at, since when is Mr. Let’s Drill in the ANWR so concerned about the rights of animals? Again, the past history of this administration makes signing this particular bill, popular or not, into law all the more odious.
If this doesn’t wake up the players on the ramifications of keeping Upshaw as the head of the union, nothing will.
There is an ex post facto clause in the Constitution. If not for the reporters assertion that the new law would effect the Vick case, I would have been certain that penalties newly prescribed could not be applied to crimes committed prior.
I also see that some people mistakenly perceive ‘innocent until proven guilty’ as a dictate for rational thinking rather than limiting it to what it is, namely, a principle of jurisprudence.To put it in other words, while OJ was declared not guilty by the justice system, no sane person would be found anywhere near his new wife
I think you’re taking this situation too far, Miranda. There are many things Upshaw has dropped the ball on that affects all or most of the players much more than Vick. How about very little protection for veterans? Bad health care for retirees? Fighting for nothing except 60% in the last CBA negotiations?
This is a union that fought for only one cause in the last labor negotiations. Only one. Are the players that well off?
Oh no Cornelius, I have been in the anti-Upshaw camp LONG BEFORE this. When Bryant Gumble asked Goodell if Tagliablue had told him where Upshaw’s leash was, I expected him to answer “Yes, its right here.”
Don’t expect the players to replace Upshaw over this. Especially since some players have come out with a wait and see approach with Vick, instead of complete support.
PM,
My use of the term “popular legislation” was intended to convey that it had broad support – evidenced by its unanimous passage in the Senate and easy passage in the house.
As I tried to indicate with my post, can president act directly only on legislation sent to him by Congress. He does not set the legislative agenda. Thus he cannot propose what bills come before him. In fact, he did sign an extension of the voting rights act last July when it was sent to his desk by congress.
His choices with the animal fighting bill were to sign it or veto it. Given the supramajority of votes it had garnered previously it is likely any veto would have been overcome. Besides, I think we can agree in general that animal fighting is not something that too many politicians want to be on record defending.
I did read your entire post, the point of which seemed to be to imply that Bush was signing the legislation, based at least in part, on the Mike Vick case. Secondly you objected to this because Bush should be spending his time elsewhere (even though the constitution requires him to respond to legislation from congress) and that he cares more for some animal rights than human rights (maybe ot maybe not, but probably not a motivation for signing this partciular bill at this particular time).
My opinion is that your assertion regarding Bushs’ motivation does not hold up when analyzing the bills history.
I’m not arguing that Bush should have vetoed it; I’m arguing that the timing on it makes it suspicious. Perhaps a conflation of correlation with causation on my part. I’m ready to accept that. Secondly, the president doesn’t have to act on every act of legislation sent to him, he can let it sit, never signing it, thus the “pocket veto.” Thirdly, given Bush’s past history of what he does and doesn’t sign, my assertion just might hold up. We’re talking about George Walker Bush, here, not St. Francis of Assisi.
The point about Ex Post Facto laws that Naftali makes is an interesting one. It might be the case that if Vick was indicted under the “new” law, then he cannot be tried under it, as the EPost Facto Clause in construed to cover the elevation in severity of previously committed criminal acts, as well the criminalization of a previously committed act.
PM,
Not to beat a dead horse, but the timing was based on Congress passing a bill that had been six years in the making. If
Bush was pestering congress to write and pass a dogfighting bill de novo after the story broke, you would have a point. In this case tough to argue that one had anything to do with the other.
I agree with both of Naftali’s comments, but it is important to note that he has been indicted for conspiracy, so as of yet the dogfighting charges are not at issue. In my opinion, the potential for federal gambling/RICO/tax evasion charges should be of more concern to Vick anyway.
Naftali,
“I also see that some people mistakenly perceive ‘innocent until proven guilty’ as a dictate for rational thinking rather than limiting it to what it is, namely, a principle of jurisprudence.”
The reason this particular principal is so ingenious and such a necessary principle of jurisprudence is because at this point in the process you can’t have a rational conclusion when only one side of the story has been told. Its like saying, in certain cases, no defense need be fielded because the indictment was written with a touch of literary magic that won’t allow for any legitimate defense.
No need to question the ‘unamed’ witnesses or their credibility or their motivation.
No need to question the authenticity of evidence.
No government prosecutors would ever run afoul of their sworn duties because of outside forces. (Hello Nifong)
This is an adversarial process and without the sanctity of that original premise, one side would always win.
People made their ‘he’s guilty despite the verdict’ rendering after a trial in the O.J. incident. I find that a bit different.
I just think its a scary road we’re going down when people want to minimize an extremely important part of our judicial system.
It also serves to remind folks that once someone is acquitted that they are back on the footing they started from which tries to save shattered lives of people who’ve been to trial and been found innocent. Although, a lot of times its too late. And Vick is a perfect example, its still over for him, despite trial, verdict etc, etc.
I have been a frequent visitor of this site over the last few months and I have been amazed to learn that MV is such a polarizing figure in this country. Even more disturbing is that people are so quick to either convict him or proclaim him innocent in the court of public opinion before even a shred of evidence has been disclosed. In any event, I have a few comments.
First, whether dog fighting occurred at the property is besides the point as it relates to MV. The question is did he have any knowledge of the unlawful activity and, if so, did he actually participate in the alleged enterprise? It is hard to believe that he had no idea what was going on at the property at any time during the last 6 years, but at the same time, I find it extremely hard to believe that one of the most heralded players in the most popular league (indeed, one of the few faces in an otherwise faceless league) would knowingly participate in unlawful activity at the risk of jeopardizing his lucrative career. There are simply too many unanswered questions at this point to reach any objective conclusions. And I don’t want to hear anything about the 4 cooperating witnesses because that issue cuts both ways. On the one hand, it is a legal certainty that all of these witnesses have serious credibility issues for obvious reasons, while at the same time, it is very unlikely that the feds staked their case on the uncorroborated testimony of these witnesses without some other circumstantial proof.
Second, the Commissioner has asked MV not to report to training camp, subject to the league’s investigation into whether MV violated its new conduct policy. Query: Will this investigation potentially uncover inculpatory evidence that can be used against MV in the federal case and, as a result, jeopardize his defense? If I’m MV’s lawyer, I might have something to say about the investigation.
Third, the fact that MV has not yet issued any type of statement proclaiming himself innocent of the conspiracy charge is evidence of nothing. His legal team needs to discover every piece of potential evidence that the government has against him before it will or should take any position, and you can guarantee that any position taken (if any) will be more ambiguous than his “I was never there” statement back in April.
Finally, the conspiracy claim predicated on dog fighting appears pretty flimsy. You can bet that the feds are going to pursue gambling and/or RICO claims as their investigation continues. In sum, I have my preliminary opinions, but I’m willing to wait until the government presents its case and MV responds before I draw any conclusions. I suggest that the MV haters as well as his apologists do the same.
SportsDiva,
Given the connection persisting between Vick and the pitbulls, it’s a good bet that he was involved in something or another illegal.However, even probability sufficient to warrant a bet is insufficient to warrant putting someone in jail, because, after all, even good bets sometimes go wrong.
That said, it is important to remember that lack of sufficient evidence for a conviction is not the same thing as proof of innocence; and whenever and insofar as we are required to render an opinion as to guilt or lack thereof, we will weigh the evidence an judge according to our understanding of the probabilities. Remember that though Capone could not be convicted for anything beyond tax evasion, rational people feel pretty sure that he was
a sinister dude.
Is the Duke case similar? Of course it is. The fact that there was not enough evidence to convict the men of rape is not in and of itself an indication that they committed no crime. Though when one
looks at the evidence, one easily can see that there is nothing at
all leads a rational person to conclude that they probably did commit the crime.
naftali,
You’re setting up a situation that no matter what happens to Vick, you will always assume he is guilty, just like OJ. What evidence do you have pointing to Vick being involved? The testimony of four dogfighters with an incentive to lie about him? I remember distinctly that the Duke LAX case involved 30+ lacrosse kids hiring a stripper that was in some way physically harmed and ran out while having racial epithets hurled at her. but while a rational person sees a crime with Vick, there was no crime with the lacrosse players? Sorry, don’t buy it.
And I’d like to submit the fact that there is NO DIFFERENCE between a federal prosecutor trying to advance his career and a state DA trying to advance his. Does the federal one have more tools to cut deals and better people to investigate? Absolutely. But that certainly doesn’t mean he’s not more focus on his career than on justice.
ME, that is a very reasonable position. I agree with your take, as it mirrors mine the most. I would only throw in that, in my opinion, the outrage express by many about “dogfighting” is somewhat hypocritical given the way this country treats animals in other circumstances, from hunting to meatpacking to farming to horse racing. I’m not a member of PETA (far from it), but it strikes me as funny that people who probably wear fur and leather are actually outscreaming PETA on this one… all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they are animal rights gangstas.
I think the goal of D-Wil and TSF’s posts here is not to proclaim Vick’s innocence, either, but to combat the steady flow of rhetoric that has come down in the MSM and press… they have pretty much already convicted Vick, and pretty much villified him so much that not only can’t he report to camp (because of all the press and anger surrounding his case), but he’ll probably never recover from these charges, even if he is acquitted. TSF is steady documenting all the worst of the media cowards that are quick to fan the flames, and I am thankful there is a site doing that….
One question though. If Vick committed these crimes BEFORE the law was put into place, which laws applies. Can we get a legal expert on this?
Naftali,
I totally understand your position. And you as one person, presenting your rational understanding at this point, given what is presented thus far and in what context, with the clear clarification of the difference between an early personal judgement versus a legal rendering is cool. People can discuss this at dinner and come to rational understandigs on every side (every rather than each is ok for opinions because there are really more than 2 sides), witness ME’s post above yours.
I’m just worried about that collective sentiment that I’m finding saturating the media and general public that doesn’t include all the qualifiers mentioned above. It’s an uneducated, emotional response, fueled by its collective nature and media-sanctioned selfishness (we all know how they benefit). Justification of early guilt by dismissing ‘Due Process’ and ‘Perceived Legal Innocense’ because of bias’s and unconscious emotional triggers is a scary thing and I think this collective action could lower the bar of analysis and discussion and adherence to our best assets. Mob rule can seep into the institutions…witness the lunacy of Sen. Robert Byrd, as a legislator in his legislative capacity, I thought that was extremely inappropriate; that wasn’t casual talk over dinner.
That’s why, to me, ME’s 2nd to last sentence, says it best:
“In sum, I have my preliminary opinions, but I’m willing to wait until the government presents its case and MV responds before I draw any conclusions.”
Dwil -
You did it again… Cornelius is absolutely write when he points out that all that this informaiton regarding Poindexter means is that he doesn’t plan to indict Michael Vick **NOW**. What part of “Surry County’s grand jury is scheduled to convene again in September” didn’t you understand? So dwil, if Poindexter doesn’t have any plans at all of seeking an indictment, why would he reconvene a grand jury in September? Maybe he just likes wasting tax payers money, eh? You do realize that the Feds have seized a ton of evidence and are not sharing it with the local prosecutor (Poindexter, who originally dragged his feat and refused to act on the search warrant). Poindexter will have a harder time making his state animal cruelty/ dogfighting case if he doesn’t have the Fed’s evidence. Please tell me where you read that Poindexter will NEVER pursue charge against Vick and has CLOSED the investigation. What, can’t find that article… well maybe you can write your own.
One of the following appears to have happened in your quotation of the Poindexter story: you misread the story, you are misinformed on the judicial process, you are blinded from reporting objectively on this topic, you are deliberately misleading your readers, or maybe a combination of the aforementioned. I don’t know dwil, but there seems to be a pattern developing here with your comments. You quote a May article in which a local animal control guy named James Smith (who received only about a quarter of the dogs seized on the Vick property), and act like it is gospel… meanwhile it is now July and you know damn well that the quotation from James Smith was ERRONEOUS because a picture of one of the dogs Smith received clearly shows scarring all over the dog’s face (not to mention all of the other non-cherry-picket reporting about the dogs having scars consistent with dogfighting). Now, dwil, if you would have prefaced your comment by saying — I erroneously reported that NONE of the dogs had scarred when I based the information for my article on an erroneous report where a Surry County animal control officer stated that none of the dogs were scarred — then I’d give you some credit. You, however chose to leave that little tidbit out of your response to me. In addition, you left out that the same James Smith only received 14 of the 53 dogs seized from the Vick property. What about – hmmm, let me figure this out – the 39 dogs that went to other shelters? I recall reading reports that most of the dogs would likely be euthanized because they were so animal aggressive. That doesn’t seem to fit your happy day account of a dog’s life on the Vick property. You make it seem as if Vick was running some luxury doggy daycare center at 1915 Moonlight Road. According to the James Smith report you cited — if Vick & Co. were taking such good care of those dogs, then how did 17 of them end up buried in his backyard.
Dwil, many of the others posting comments are ill informed. Just like most of the people who watch Fox News regularly think that some of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi citizens. Fox News did little to dispel this myth… the station seemed to revel in the error. You appear to be doing the same here. You are cherry-picking information from here and there in an attempt to fit your own biased views.
Dwil, let me remind you of your own racist quote:
Every column you wrote condemned Vick and Falcons owner Arthur Blank for keeping Vick in Atlanta. Every column, you used your buddy’s manipulated half-truths to position yourself one the side of white – I mean, right. But the whole time you pontificated on Vick’s niggerness – damn, I did it again, I meant “thugness” – in your paper and when you guested on television, you were wrong – same with your half-truth writin’ boy. (emphasis added)
Oh, what, that’s not overtly racist? I’ve been following up on you, dwil. I read that post where you claim racism is only about power and that black people simply can’t be racist. Are you sure you’re a journalist and not some cult leader? Have you actually looked up the definition for “racism”? Oh… I forgot, you’re not very good with citations, so let me quote it and cite it for you: “So, while black people and other minorities can be and are prejudiced, we can never be racists.”
[http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/07/19/a-spotes-notes-special-71907-michael-vick-and-barry-bonds/] Now you said in your “Shhhh!” article: “One [sic] the side of white,” really now? So ONLY white people believe in Vick’s guilt — and by extension are racist? Such limited intelect from someone with such superior grammatical skills… quite dangerous, don’t you think? Hitler was an excellent orator, but was clearly a delusional racist that blamed most of Germany’s – and the world’s – problems on the Jews. I’m not willing to file you under the “racist” category just yet, but you are clearly delusional.
It’s amazing that the same person that believes we should all suspend judgment on Vick and wait until the court trial renders a decision (and even then you’ll probably ask us to wait for his appeal) is the same person that wrote the vitriolic “Michael Vick Will Not Be Indicted: Shhhhhhhh!” article. That article — although not overtly claiming Vick is innocent — seems to indicate that anyone that believes he is guilty is a racist.
Let me ask you, do you think that I’m a racist — as I absolutely believe Vick is guilty of something here. Am I a “redneck, racist reader” as you claim in your Shhhhh! article; or am I merely an independent writer without a contract demanding exclusivity? Dwil, I’m really starting to wonder who the professional is, here… “redneck, racist readers,” is that really how you view your fellow Americans? You remind me of our current president — when he wants to get out of something he did wrong, he just changes the definition of what he did. What, “redneck racist readers” a racist comment…. oh no, no, why don’t you just listen to my definition of “racism.” As though racism were some trivial excercise in semantics.
Oh, dwil, let me finally answere your ridiculous question so that you don’t claim I’m dodging your questions. You seem to say because you — a so-called jornalist — cited one ESPN source as saying Vick would not be indicted… that anyone who said whe would be indicted is racist. Is this really your twisted thinking? You act as though Chris Mortensen were Walter Cronkite. The point is that you WANT to believe that Vick is innocent of these charges (in the face of a mountain of evidence), so you cherry-picked Chris Mortensen’s reporting. Don’t expect me to believe for one minute — after that Shhhhh! piece – that if Chris Mortensen said he would be indicted you would have reported it. You would have probably said, “what does Chris Mortensen know,” he just some white racist ESPN reporter. So dwil, please forgive me if I don’t buy your excuse for the Shhhhh! article that it is all Chris Mortensen’s fault for your unbelievably lax and misleading “reporting.”
Dwil,
I’m curious, are you watching Bonds games this week in anticipation of a record breaking?
I ask because you’ve made your position known (and I can truly appreciate it), but I’m unsure if you are a baseball fan or if you are excited in any way about the record.
Just curious.
SML:
Agreed. Although I’m not really concerned about some radical special-interest group with a nominal membership that advocates for the rights of animals at the expense of human rights in many cases. The more exposure PETA receives, the less relevant they become in the public’s eyes.
To clarify, my complaint is not with the TSF, but with some of the extreme posts on both sides of the issue, whether they are racist rants ready to convict him without proof or unbridled support even if he is ultimately found guilty of a felony.
Mr._John_Doe is my new favorite “poster” on this site. Dwil, please don’t make me wait for your latest inept response…
dwil Says:
July 20th, 2007 at 12:34 am
“So, while black people and other minorities can be and are prejudiced, we can never be racists.”
D Wil,
So as a Japanese-American and a minority, does that mean I can’t be racist? now how does that work if I am in Japan? What if I am just visiting Japan, can I be racist then, or does it require permanent residents? Ok, so would I be racist if I thought Vick was guilty if I was in Japan? What about if I was in America, so I am a minority, but Vick was in Japan, where I would be a majority, then would I be racist? Or is the home of the person I am considering the main factor? Oh, and so now in Texas, less than 50% of the population is white, so does that mean that there are no racist people in Texas, because having grown up there I would have to disagree. Ofcourse, can you really just classify whites into one group? I mean I would think there would be all sorts of classifications, jews, irish, polish, germans, czechs… How does that work when determining what a minority is, and therefore who can actually be racist?
Finally, so does that mean that all the White farm owners in South Africa were really just prejudice and not racists since they were really a minority in South Africa? Because, in my opinion, many of those people were racists… I guess I can conclude from your statement that the only racist people in Africa are the blacks.
correction… I meant Houston, not Texas as having less than 50% whites…
ME,
You wrote: “Even more disturbing is that people are so quick to either convict him or proclaim him innocent in the court of public opinion”
I agree with the first half of your statement, but not the second half. I really haven’t seen any post here that is “proclaiming Vick’s innocence” only protecting our cherished American value of “innocent until proven guilty”… big difference.
Mr. John Doe,
while by my last count I disagreed with about 37 statements you made in multiple posts, let me just address your very last one. Because this site goes out of its way to report the UNREPORTED or UNDEREPORTED does not mean that it is biased except for a very healthy bias toward UNREPORTED or UNDERREPORTED INFORMATION. That bias, if you can call it one, is the definition of good journalism. For example, up until clicking this site five minutes ago, I had absolutely no idea that Bush signed into law dogfighting as a felony only EIGHT days after Vick’s investigation. Now I watched Rome is Burning and OTL today, checked out multiple MSM websites and didn’t get this not so insignificant tidbit. You might call such information “biased reporting” instead of pointing the finger at all those that failed to report this. (Not to mention a despicable government if this is anything more than a coincidence)
More specifically, you cite the Chris Mortenson example as “cherry-picking”. It is this site’s RESPONSIBILTY and DUTY to “cherry-pick” PRECISELY what an entire MSM industry is ignoring. The journalistic approach that looks for neglected stories is actually one that CORRECTS A BIAS! The current sports mob mentality that requires punishment without due process are the biased folks you need to worry about. I really hope that you are not blinded by whatever personal gripes you seem to have with dwil to not understand this critically important larger point. I have only been here a few weeks and this is one of the very few places in the sports blogoshpere that isn’t sheep-like. There is a concerted effort to look for facts in hard to find places that you and others like you might not have the time, energy, patience, nor inclination to look.
Modi,
Your explanations sounds a lot like the crap that Fox News spews out when it explains why their reporting is a 180 degrees from the other real news outlets (i.e., why it is “biased”). Like on the Iraq war — Fox News quotes they are looking for the “good news” in Iraq and refuse to report on all of the IEDs attacks that are killing American soldiers. You and your buddy dwil seem to be looking for the “good news” on Vick.
Call it what you want, Modi, but it’s cherry-picking in my book. Now if you did your own independent reporting — like interviewing Vicks neighbors (that claim they DID call the Surry County police department regarding the dogs barking at 1915 Moonlight Road), then you might have a point about doing exclusive reporting in order to correct a perceived bias. Or let’s say if you called that drug store down the street from Vick’s property where employees claimed they’ve seen Mr. Vick quite often (even though Vick says he never visits the property), then you’d have something. No, you’re not doing your own reporting — you’re chery-picking (a la Fox News) the reports on Vick that fit your bias (that everyone is out to get Vick — as if we really cared about him before this dogfighting fiasco).
Yeah, Modi, it’s me that is too lazy to dig up the “real” fact on the Vick case (your “real” reporting apparently served dwil “real” well when he reported that Michael Vick wouldn’t be indicted). I’m lazy? You know what they say about those in glass houses, Modi. I think dwil’s reporting heretofore has been fairly weak on content (very strong on blaming white people, however). I mean, saying readers of a certain media outlet are “redneck, racist readers,” now is that really advancing your argument? You know there are muslims in the Middle East that — I’m sure to this day — claim Osama bin Laden was set up by the Israeli Mossad and had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11? Do you really think the inept Bush administration were putting off the signing of this federal dogfighting bill so that the Federal Government could nail Michael Vick — a guy that runs fast and throws a football?
You see Modi, I couldn’t care less about “getting” that idiot Michael Vick — except that this type of animal torture really upsets and infuriates me. Even if you bury your head in the sand and believe he didn’t “organize” these illegal dog fights, you have to ask yourself — as a “journalist” — how the hell Michael Vick owned that property since 2001, owned a pit bull breeding business, owned the VickK9Kennels.com website, but had no idea that dogfighting was happening there. It reminds of the movie Casablanca where Captain Renault exclaims that “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!” I’m sure Vick was just “shocked, shocked” to find out there was dogfighting going on at 1915 Moonlight Road.
Geez, just watching Letterman, and Drew Carey says he is boycotting the NFL if Michael is playing. Oooh, we don’t want to miss the big cheese curd and beer investment of Drew Carey. Well, come to think of it….that may be 30% of Cleveland’s beer sales…..geez…..no sense of innocent until proven guilty.
It amazes me how the sportsmedia rallied around Dany Heatley, another pro athlete in Atlanta, who actually killed a teammate. In 2003, Heatley sped thru populous Buckhead in the wee hours of the morning and wrecked his Porsche, he almost killed himself, but he was successful in doing so with the passengar, his own teammate. Now this is not to justify Mike Vick’s alledgations or condemn Heatley..its to show that the media did not rush to protesting drunk driving or the reckless behavior of Heatley, they did not howl when he was sentenced to probation and community service (of which not one hour was served in Atlanta)..there was no call to ban him from the NHL and the fans were very supportive, so much so that when he requested to be traded so that he could start anew, the protests where that he was “abandoning” the fans. I still don’t know what happened in Pat Kerney’s house (is there a rapist running around in Buckhead or what?). The high school QB for the most successful football program in the state died from the injuries he sustained driving while both intoxicated and with cocaine in his system, and there are no howls about teen drinking and drug use (and this was not the first time this young man had done this). Chris Benoit has been damn near knighted, and trust, his wife and child didn’t die these pain-free, quick deaths…they suffered. But for some reason, the AJC and sports talk personalities found it in their hearts to look for an explanation instead of trying to bash these guys relentlessly. Why? We KNOW Dany Heatley is responsible for Dan Snyder’s death, we KNOW a rape occurred in a home owned by Pat Kerney while he says he slept in another room, we KNOW the AJC has not had ONE follow-up story on that, we KNOW Chris Benoit took the life of his wife and child, then his own, we KNOW Daniel Peeks drove drunk and high and crashed his jeep, ending his life…..but what I don’t know is why the AJC and the local sports talk media handled these stories so differently in tone…..why?
Perhaps Vick’s got a playbook to study, but how can a team go into a season with a starter who’s missed all of camp under a brand new staff? Just a thought, but by barring Vick, the Atlanta starting QB, from training camp, an act exacerbated by the implementation of new game plan by a new head coach, has Goodell, barring an injury to Harrington, effectively suspended Vick for the season without so much as a hearing? Where is Vick’s union rep? I hope that someone wakes up Gene Upshaw and tells him this is his last chance to preserve any shred of influence this union may have.
Miranda,
That’s a rhetorical question, right?
Miranda,
I’m not sure what you’re claiming… that life is “unfair” or that Vick is innocent? And give it a break on the Chris Benoit case… have you watched MSNBC and CNCB over the last month? They were covering the Chris Benoit case — and the larger issue of steroid use by professional athletes — on a constant basis. Miranda, I don’t think I have to remind you that Chris Benoit, his wife, and his son are dead. The investigation into the matter declared that Chris killed both his wife and son — so where’s the conspiracy? They’re DEAD, Miranda, how long should the media cover the story??? I didn’t pay attention to the story because it really didn’t interest me much — animal cruelty stories do get my immediate attention. So, have you been watching the Chris Benoit story — oh, what, you couldn’t care less about wrestling, either. So why are you so surprised that the media isn’t covering it???
Besides Miranda, the Vick issue is an ongoing case in which the accused (Michael Vick) has a ton of evidence that Vick has been running a dogfighting operation for quite some time — yet, notwithstanding his quick one-liners that he’s never been to the property and that his family/friends took advantage of him, Michael Vick hasn’t even bothered to defend himself against the governments allegations.
Miranda, now why don’t you answer one of my questions? If Vick is so innocent, why didn’t he fight the Feds on the forfeiture Complaint in which the Feds seized 53 of his pit bulls. You don’t hear Vick saying how much he loves those dogs and really wants them back, do you? Isn’t it amazing how neither Vick nor Boddie seem to care about the 53 pit bulls?
Come on Miranda, are you really going to imply that the media is burying negative stories on white people? I’m sorry, but Pat Kerney doesn’t have a $130 Million contract and doesn’t have the number 2 selling jersey in the NFL. I mean, you could say the same thing about Pacman Jones and Chris Henry — why isn’t there more media coverage of them?? Somebody ended up paralyzed in the Pacman Jones case — but, again, Pacman isn’t a big star like Vick and the Pacman isn’t accused of torturing animals for pleasure. Trust me, Miranda, if Pat Kerney hit a labrador retriever over the head with a bat — he’d be all over the news even though he isn’t a big star. I’d bet 90% of Americans wouldn’t even know that Pat Kerney plays in the NFL, but Michael Vick… everyone knows #7 for the Atlanta Falcons.
Just to clarify this…”A little-reported change in laws regarding dog fighting may affect, or be behind federal investigators sudden involvement in the Michael Vick case.Eight days into the Michael Vick dog fighting investigation by Surry county officials, George Bush signed into law making dog fighting a felony; it was a misdemeanor in Virginia:”
It was a felony in Virginia but a misdemeanor federally. The law change affected the federal statute, it did nothing to change the fact that it was already a felony in VA.
Aone,
LOL….You know it is……
John Doe,
You do have a great point actually. The Fox News analogy is a pretty good one. But a couple key differences. TSF is not out to prove Mike Vick’s innocence. Just like everyone else we have no idea if he did it or not. We do, however, want to point out the clear and obvious biases the media has in what facts it decides to report and what facts it doesn’t. Those accusations stick no matter how anyone can spin it–the actual indictment itself and the basis of the case is not even reported because the MSM knows how tenuous the case is stacked up. The fact that Mr. Bush changed the law is not reported, and while it may not be all that relevant to the case, its odd that it wouldn’t be mentioned by ANYONE (o wait, it would give off the notion that as of March 2007, dogfighting just wasn’t that heinous of a crime to us and that wouldn’t jive with the horrific nature of the crime right?). It’s not as if, like Fox News, we refuse to report on actual news. There’s been nothing about the Vick trial that has NOT been reported here. But what value is there in continuing to demonize the act like everyone else is doing? What value is there in talking about how much of a “thug” Vick is? If the MSM would lay out ALL the facts about the indictment, and then said he sincerely believed all the negative things that are said about Vick, I’d be ok. It’s not that the news is negative about Vick, this we all know, its that not ALL the facts are being laid out. See Fox News ONLY reports the positive spin on Iraq, the negatives about immigration (when they had a breaking headline about an illegal immigrant getting in a car accident I laughed), and refuses to report about anything else that is clearly admitting to bias. TSF has never NOT reported the news or not reported information about Vick. But if there is news that is extremely relevant to the case, such as, o I dont know, what the case is actually built on, it should be reported.
But again, this isn’t necessarily the point. The point is to expose how the media handles certain situations in relation to others. If the media did this sort of negative bias/smear campaign against EVERYONE (like, ALWAYS treating PETA as a credible organization), well then many of us would have less of a problem (though that in itself would still be a problem). But the fact that they treat certain situations differently than they would normally treat them (like, treating PETA as a credible organization this time), is sickening, and it is largely the point of this site. TSF doesn’t report some of the positive news that comes out about Vick to prove that Vick is innocent, no, he does it to show how the media has been extremely one sided in this affair, and how they’ve not done so in others. So when you say its very weak on content….the point isn’t to spew the same facts about Vick we all know, the content comes in the analysis of the media coverage that is shown for what it is by the examples and articles that dwil and others post. I hope that you’ve noticed that this site goes beyond just a sports news site and digs into issues.
But I guess its all relative. We will say we’re pointing out relevant biases in the media and you could say the media shouldn’t report on this because its not important. Just like Fox News can say its in the middle, with the truth, and everyone else is to the left. But everyone else can say its the truth, and Fox News is to the right. But I can say this. The MSM has treated the same situations in completely different ways. If it was always on one side, that would make since. But somehow, certain cases are different….half the time they’re on the “lynch him” side, and the other half they’re on the “don’t rush to judgment” side, and I can’t quite put my finger on why they aren’t consistent….
The “If Vick is so innocent…” nonsense is just one gigantic red herring. TSF is not trying to prove Vick’s innocence. It’s doing a mostly good job of pointing out the MSM’s sometimes dubious and selective reporting of the this story.
J. Doe,
I think the Benoit thing is actually bigger than the tragic deaths of his wife and child. It’s about the fact that 55 professional wrestlers have died before the age of 45. It’s about 70% of these guys died under McMahon’s ‘leadership’. Want a steroid conspiracy, there’s one. It’s about the kids that ‘idolize’ these hulking men and admit to taking the ‘juice’ to be like them. What about that?
What about the cycle of death and destruction that follows Tony LaRussa around? What about the fact that he was McGuire and Consenco’s manager in Oakland when the took roids in pubic view of everyone (accourding to Cansenco). What about the fact that LaRussa was the manager when McGuire allegedly took roids during his stay with the Cardinals. Then there’s the DUI; the one where he was so drunk that he fell asleep at the wheel of his car in the street that we all conveniently forgot. Let’s not forget the Josh Hancock mess where he died in an auto accident as a result of DUI…
See the pattern here?
Does this excuse anything Vick is alleged to have done? No. But it does put it into a little perspective. Death of Humans > Death of Animals.
Actually John Doe it’s funny that you said that about Kerney hitting a dog over the head w/ a bat. Apparently you are not familiar w/ this story about another Falcons defensive lineman..
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/157589/atlanta_falcon_fights_animal_abuse.html
John Doe (100),
We’re alleging that it is unfair, not that Vick is innocent. And the Benoit case is a great example. Tell me what the media coverage of Benoit has revolved around. It has revolved around a tragic family man who was pulled into a life of consistent drugs and steroid use thjat ravaged his body, threw him into depression and caused him to commit such a heinous crime. The coverage has revolved around panning out on the wrestling world and its rampid use of drugs and the pressures guys like McMahon put on these wrestlers. Its similar to the coverage of the rape and murder of that Iraqi girl and her family by the military. It was attributed to all the stresses of war, etc., etc. And while all these causes may be perfectly viable….somehow the “pan out” only happens in certain cases. Attributing someone’s acts to various causes outside of that person only happens for guys like Benoit and the soldiers. Vick doesn’t get that. Vick gets the demonization, the dramatization, the ridicule, the intense hatred, and all that. Like we said, I’d bet SO much money that if Brett Favre were to do this, we’d have people “shocked” and “looking for explanations” (starting in MS), but with Vick its just because he’s a thug and thugs do these sorts of things. If it broke tomorrow that Roger Clemens admits to using steroids he’d be applauded for his honesty, and the story would become how everyone used roids, and we should just consider it part of the era, it was the only way to keep up with juiced hitters, etc., etc. But that doesn’t happen for Bonds.
If Vick came out tomorrow and said he loves dogs, what would happen? He’d be ridiculed for being insincere and a disgusting human being. If he is innocent and beats all his charges here what would happen? He’d be ridiculed for being another rich guy who escaped justice and a disgusting human being. Why would he come out and say something? And I don’t think many of us how too big a problem at the AMOUNT of coverage regarding this, because they like stories about athletes transgressions. But it is the manner in which they report it and the manner in which they report other things (Benoit, Kerney) that reek of bias.
Aone,
So you’re saying the MSM is covering up the drug use in the mostly white profession of wrestling and the fact that wrestlers aren’t living until the ripe old age of 75? Aone, what about the steroid use in the NFL? What is the average age of an NFL lineman? How about the average age of an NFL running back? The media really isn’t covering that, either, and the majority of the players in the NFL are black.
Aone this is akin to telling the police officer that nailed you going 90 mph in a 55 zone that “everyone else is doing it.” You do understand that the general public really isn’t very interested in professional wrestling — it’s a niche form of entertainment at best… it’s not really even a sport. Compare the Super Bowl to Wrestlemania… not really even a comparison. Michael Vick is one of the most widely recognized athletes in the country with the #2 selling jersey — Vick is a big story to the MSM and news outlets in OTHER COUNTRIES are covering this story. Tell me how many Canadian news outlets are covering the Chris Benoit story?
John Doe,
NASA has the most technologically advanced ground-based optical telescope in the whole world. It cost $120 million dollars. Its more advanced than the hubble telescope and can see objects the size of a pinhead billions of light years away. But that telescope still couldn’t find your point, nor my interest in all that rambling. God speed.
Ap,
Brett Favre and Michael Vick are apples and oranges. I will concede that if this happened with Brett Favre, then there may be more of an attempt to “understand” why, but I disagree that the outrage would be any different. Back to the “apples and oranges” comment… Vick is no Favre. How about Donovan McNabb and Favre? McNabb has appeared in mainstream Campbell’s Soup ads and has generally been very friendly with the media (e.g., I don’t remember McNabb flipping the bird to any Philadelphia fans). If this happened to McNabb, then I do think the MSM – that generally accept McNabb as a “good guy” – would be trying to “understand” why he did it… just like Favre.
Miranda,
If you’re going to dodge my comments, then using the “most technologically advanced ground-based optical telescope in the whole world” is probably the most interesting why you could do so. For the record, I think you are dodging a more serious debate… but personally, I thought you did so in a very creative and funny way. I actually even smiled.
So wait….Brett Favre and Michael Vick are apples and oranges because of what? They are both humans. They are both football players. They are both high profile (which you have used as an argument several times). What’s the differnece? One’s more “mainstream”? WTF is that supposed to mean. White people are more mainstream than minorities…is that supposed to be justification for treating them differently? THe media LOVES Favre and McNabb (for the most part) yes, but does that justify treating them different. You’re reasoning just proved all our points. Because they don’t like Mike Vick, they are treating this story differently than had they liked Vick. It’s not that ACT that people are mad at…it’s the person doing it. Well why is that? Cause he flipped the bird? Seriously, i hope you don’t seriously think thats the reason. The water bottle incident? Hey, that incident, by public record, was a MISTAKE. Basically you’re sying that to be treated fairly you must treat the media well (basically the case for Bonds). I say that is blatantly biased and unfair, and half the reason they don’t like Vick (and the reason ppl call him a bad QB) is the way he plays, the braids on his hair, and yes, the color of his skin.
Ap,
I see where you’re trying to drive with your comments, but here is the point… it IS fair, and that is LIFE that the media likes certain people and doen’t like others (Bonds was an excellent case in point)… so they may be tougher on those they DON’T particularly like. Now if the media (or I for that matter) take this position solely based on race — then that is racist and unfair. If we are “harder” on a person *in the public and not in the court room* because a particular player is an A*hole, then you may not like it, but it is reality. Again, I remind you, that I didn’t really have anything against Vick (other than small annoying infractions) prior to the dogfighting charges. So *I* am not treating Michael Vick any worse than I would Brett Favre. If you think that I would give Brett Favre a pass on animal abuse because he is “likeable,” then you obviously don’t know me.
By the way Ap, don’t you agree that if Tiger Woods would have been caught up in a dogfighting scandle that the media would be scrambling to “explain why” someone soooo wonderful could be accused of something so heinous? Again, Tiger doesn’t have that “bad boy” image. You seem to be arguing that Newport News, VA native (a/k/a “Bad News” VA) shouldn’t have a bad boy image. I think you reap what you sew, my friend.
J. Doe…
nice evasion tactics… again I re-state:
Human Death > Animal Death
The Benoit story should have had every major news outlet calling for a ban on WWE until they ‘clean up their act’. Instead we got the “troubled man” angle.
You never even addressed LaRussa. I wonder why?
You wear what you sew, but reap as you sow.
- Aaaaaaaand, I’m out!
GMP Says:
So on one hand, if Vick knew about the happenings at a home he owned(which from what I’ve read, if he didn’t, he’s about the most naive person in the world) then he deserves punishment.
I am uncertain about the number of houses Vick has or the amount of acres associated with the property in question. However, I do know this. Back in the 80s my great grandmother almost lost 52 acres of land because one of my stupid, disrespectful cousins decided to grow weed on less than one quarter of an acre. Fortunately, one of my other cousins is a lawyer and was able to get the charges against her dropped. How naive was my great-grandmother?
Let’s try another instance … I will use made up names but the situation happened for real.
James, Joanna, and Baby J went to visit Don, James’ best friend since the 4th grade. When Don’s wife ran out of ice, she asked him to go to the store. Don asked James to ride along. Baby J cried to go with Daddy, so he went along too. They left and returned home without a problem. Later that night, when everyone went home, Don left home because he and his wife had an argument. He gets pulled over with a good amount of cocaine in his truck tires. Imagine if he had gotten pulled over while James and Baby J were in the truck. No one, including James and Don’s wife, knew he was selling and using cocaine. Were they naïve?
Mr._John_Doe Says: Hey stopmikelupica, I’ve presented a bunch of evidence that points to Vick’s guilt, now why don’t you tell me all of the evidence that points to his innocence.
Please try again, I didn’t get it. Being associated with guilty parties and being guilty are two different things. Unless … you are trying to prove guilt by association.
so where are all of the happy Mike Vick pit bull pet owners?
Don’t know. Based on what I’ve seen on TV, most dog fights hosts a couple dozen people. If Vick frequented these events, there should be a fair amount of people (more than 4) who saw him participating. Where are they?
Vick is a noticeable face. With today’s technology – cell phone with picture/video, someone would have taken a compromising photo of him at a dog fight just like the one pictured at the link below.
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2006/07/27/maturing_vick_g.html
Why did Mike Vick only specialize in Pit Bulls and Presa Canarios (two fighting breeds), and not raise any other dogs in his kennel?
I have purchased AKC certified dogs and not one of the breeders I’ve purchased from breed more than one type of dog. Its usually the type of dog the breeder likes. No one wants to pay for a mut.
Aone,
Please, who cares about LaRussa? I’m not really a basebally fan, anyway. Are you kidding though, Barry Bonds — a guy that any reporter will tell you is a pain in the arse to interview being given a break? I remember a lot of white guy testifying in front of Congress — including Mcguire — and then Mcquire refusing to answere whether or not he’d ever used steroids. If you recall, the media excoriated him on this isssue. So the Bonds analogy really doesn’t hold any water.
LaRussa, really? Now you’re stretching, Aone. Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan had all kinds of coverage over their drunken escapades… were they given preferential treatment by the media? What has Paris Hilton ever done that was so bad (yes she violated probation), but she ended up in jail. LaRussa wasn’t given any special treatment (I’d imagine, as I’m not really familiar with the story)… it’s just that nobody really cares about LaRussa other than probably sports junkies and the city in which his team plays.
Why is everyone here so quick to condemn people for assuming that he is guilty? Don’t I have a right to determine whether or not I think he is guilty? Innocent till proven guilty governs the courts, not me as an individual. On this site, many people have labled others as racist for their opinions or wrong for saying he did these crimes. Have those individuals actually been convicted of being racist, or has a court determined that those posters are wrong?
Go Bucks,
I addressed that in my post @ 86.
Makasha:
Great post on a number of levels. Good stuff.
Hello Makasha,
I respect your opinion, and appreciate the opportunity to challenge you:
You say:
Vick is a noticeable face. With today’s technology – cell phone with picture/video, someone would have taken a compromising photo of him at a dog fight just like the one pictured at the link below.
I respond:
What makes you so sure the Feds don’t have such evidence? But regardless, I have read that dogfighters often don’t get caught because they are smart criminals. They often set a meeting point on the day of the fight (like a 7-11) and then the location is announced to only those present and it is announced in person. The participants are then asked to leave personal items — such as cell phones — behind, and before they get to the actual location. I think this is for two reasons i) the photographic capability of many cell phones is one reason, but also the fact that any cell phone that a cell phone (even one that is turned off) can track an individual. By the way — if you actually read the indictment — you will note that Vick used an alias “Ookie” and at one event someboy is alleged to have yelled out his name at a dogfight (I believe that somebody is a cooperating witness), and Vick’s crew allegedly berated him for using Vick’s real name. By the way, I’m sure Vick didn’t attent dogfights wearing a #7 Atlantic Falcon Jersey… he probably dressed more like the unibomber so that nobody would be able to identify him.
You say:
Based on what I’ve seen on TV, most dog fights hosts a couple dozen people. If Vick frequented these events, there should be a fair amount of people (more than 4) who saw him participating. Where are they?
I say:
Again, Makasha, if you read the indictment then you should better understand. The indictment alleges that there weren’t really “extraneous spectators” at these matches… it was just Vick’s crew and the hosting kennel’s crew. So, depending on the size of their respectie crews, there might only be a total of 8 -10 people at any one of these dogfights. And since that is allegedly the case, Makash, think about it… these people may be responsible for “organizing” the fight and therefore responsible for a felony. Now if there were a bunch of spectators as you suggest — and their crime was merely a misdemeanor under the law — then you might expect some more witnesses. Vick is not dumb and was well aware of his notariety. Besides, Makasha, isn’t four (4) cooperating witnesses enough? Obviously you already have a couple of Vick’s own boys getting indicted with Vick… so how many other people does the government need? In addition, the government usually cuts a plea bargain deal with those cooperating witnesses… did you ever think that the government didn’t want to plea bargain with 12 people in order to nail Vick and his crew. Maybe the government is intending to go after many of these other participants that are not already indicted or not already cooperating.
By the way… the story about the weed is interesting, but was she growing weed on that property for 6 years? Did the weed constantly bark. And, oh, did your great grandmothe own a company specializing in weed growing (Vick owned his kennel through his company, MV7, LLC)?
John Doe,
Quickly, about your last paragraph in reference to Mashaka’s grandmother. The whole point is, she wouldn’t know…she wasn’t the one growing the weed.
“Why is everyone here so quick to condemn people for assuming that he is guilty? Don’t I have a right to determine whether or not I think he is guilty? Innocent till proven guilty governs the courts, not me as an individual. On this site, many people have labled others as racist for their opinions or wrong for saying he did these crimes. Have those individuals actually been convicted of being racist, or has a court determined that those posters are wrong?”
I think you SHOULD be quick to assume he’s guilty. There are charges. There are media reports. There is a grand American tradition of premature vilification. Even before the Salem witch trials began, people didn’t need evidence. The same was true with the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII. It was definitely true during Joe McCarthy’s heyday. Whether the case has been situated in Scottsboro, Philadelphia (Mississippi) or anywhere else, folks have every right to gather up a lynch mob (whether real or imagined). And you cannot EVER gather up a lynch mob unless some brave soul jumps the gun. There is nothing wrong with asserting a man is guilty of a felony without evidence to support that claim. Lynch mobs are an inextricable part of the fabric of American life. It is absolutely acceptable and part of the nature of Americans. You’ve done an excellent job of laying out YOUR rights.
Certainly, you shouldn’t take offense to others exercising their right to assign foul motives to YOU without evidence. They too, would be in their rights.
At the end of the day, everyone should say what they want and not worry about what anyone else thinks. Aren’t opinions like assholes. You’re certainly entitled to have one – but not all will be as appealing. It really depends on your audience. You may have stumbled into a place where people believe you to be more an asshole than you perceive yourself to be.
Imagine that…the conclusions people can come to without evidence.
T3,
“Imagine that…the conclusions people can come to without evidence.”
That was dangerously poetic! Beautiful.
Yo, it’s crazy to argue that it’s fair to treat people differently if you’re a journalist just because you don’t like them. That goes against every tenet of journalism. You can’t just rationalize different treatment based on the fact that somebody is not popular. That really, really sucks. And Mark McGuire was a notable ass to journalists before he went on his home run chase. Go back and check the stories. Sammy Sosa was the funny open guy, McGuire was the asshole. Yet, he didn’t get villified anywhere near the way Bonds has been. There were a lot of other points I disagreed with in some comments, but I wanted to make that comment.
Mr. John Doe,
What makes you so sure the Feds don’t have such evidence? I have read that dogfighters often don’t get caught because they are smart criminals.
AllIf they had the evidence, it would have been posted on-line (probably partially) or in a tabloid somewhere before this surfaced. Most criminals are smart.Besides, Makasha, isn’t four (4) cooperating witnesses enough? Obviously you already have a couple of Vick’s own boys getting indicted with Vick… so how many other people does the government need? In addition, the government usually cuts a plea bargain deal with those cooperating witnesses… did you ever think that the government didn’t want to plea bargain with 12 people in order to nail Vick and his crew. Maybe the government is intending to go after many of these other participants that are not already indicted or not already cooperating.
I personally don’t trust the word of criminals who’ve gotten plea bargains. Vicks own boys may have lied to make sure they got charges. They could have even been coaxed into it. My questions: Are his boys talking because they feel really bad about dogfighting? Because they got caught? Because they need a way out?
Again, Makasha, if you read the indictment then you should better understand. The indictment alleges that there weren’t really “extraneous spectators” at these matches… it was just Vick’s crew and the hosting kennel’s crew.
I read the indictment and understood it quite well, thank you. It would suck if I didn’t or that $80k my parents spent at JWU for my paralegal studies degree would be a total waste considering I write (whatever’s needed) for a living. Keyword alleges. Indictments are written as formal accusations, meaning the language is intended(sometimes slanted) to get a case before the court.
Countless people have been indicted with even more damning evidence and was found “not guilty” when they were tried. Notice I write “not guilty”. Even if the verdict comes back “not guilty” Vick will not have been proven innocent. He will always be guilty because there is no standard set in the American justice system to prove innocence.
Vick used an alias “Ookie” … By the way, I’m sure Vick didn’t attent dogfights wearing a #7 Atlantic Falcon Jersey…
An alias is used by someone trying to hide something. From my understanding (before this thing came out) Vick’s nickname (a lot of us, African Americans, have them from the time we are born) is OOkie.
Vick was not wearing an ATL-Falcons Jersey when he was stopped at the airport nor was he wearing one in the photo I placed a link to. He is not usually wearing one when he’s walking aroung in Atlanta nor was he wearing one in the Nike Gridiron campaign but everyone recognizes him. All black men don’t look alike … well not to us anyway.
I am willing to
betgo out on a limb here and say most of the people at the alleged dogfights were black. If Vick was there I am SURE everyone knew who he was.By the way… the story about the weed is interesting, but was she growing weed on that property for 6 years? Did the weed constantly bark. And, oh, did your great grandmothe own a company specializing in weed growing (Vick owned his kennel through his company, MV7, LLC)?
Sportsdiva answered: The whole point is, she wouldn’t know…she wasn’t the one growing the weed.
Thanks, Sportsdiva. I failed to mention that she was a farmer which is why the authorities felt like she should have known the weed was on the property. I know women who have been arrested and indicted because their boyfriends, husbands, or children was selling weed from their homes. However, they were found not guilty because they really didn’t know.
Gotta get back to my paid writing.:)
Temple3:
You may have stumbled into a place where people believe you to be more an asshole than you perceive yourself to be.
Hmmm, Temple3, sounds like that’s your opinion… but you know what they say about “opinions.” I was reading your post and I thought for a second that I was listening to a History Channel episode… Word Ward II, Japanese internment camps, McCarthy… I’m impressed with your knowledge of history… hey did you ever see that History Channel special about the German Messerschmidt ME262? So what does this have to do with Michael Vick organizing illegal dogfights under a criminal enterprise known as Bad Newz Kennels and ending up with 17 dead dogs in his backyard and 53 pit bulls seized by the feds?… well, not much. But it’s interesting to talk about, isn’t it Temple3?
So, you want to assign fould motives to me? Why? Is it because
John Doe:
Why are you directing posts to me? Moreover, why are you directing sarcastic posts to me? Finally, why are directing posts to me which are wholly unrelated to anything I’ve said?
Trust me, if you’re bored, I’ll wear your ass out!
I can see it now.
Temple3, after reading John Doe’s posts, staring straight into the camera with a look of slight frustration and bemusement and thinking: “Is Temple3 gonna have to choke a b****??!!”
I’ve got my popcorn. (-:
Wayne Brady all day.
Ummm….excuse me…but did the Falcons call a press conference to say that nothing has changed?
Yeah Mirand ESP N crap is reporting that they were going to suspend him for 4 games. Also ESPN keeps coming up with the notion that the falcons will cut him.
T3,
You said:
Certainly, you shouldn’t take offense to others exercising their right to assign foul motives to YOU without evidence. They too, would be in their rights.
When have I not come forth with evidence? There is a “mountain” of evidence against Vick. YOU are the one that fails to come forth with any exculpatory evidence. You claim that I don’t provide any evidence as though you were in some other forum during my last 5 postings.
Didn’t the media convict Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling before those guys went to court? Well, there was a mountain of evidence against those guys, also. I highly recommend the movie “The Smartest Men in the Room” on this subject… but I digress.
T3, is there any level of evidence that would prove to you that Vick is guilty? If the Feds actually had a video tape of Vick shooting/electrocuting/hanging one of those dogs, would that finally be enough? Do you also feel that Osama bin Laden is innocent since he has not been proven guilty in a court of law? If someone throws a rock at your car, did they do it since it wasn’t proven in a court of law. If Vick has 17 dogs buried in his backyard, should he not be entered in a “breeder of the year” contest because animal abuse hasn’t been proven in court? I can’t wait to see how “Ookie’s” defencse team explains that one.
I believe that Vick deserves his day in court and deserves a fair trial… but that’s as far as I’m going to go. What was done with those animals was absolutely despicable — there were 17 dog carcasses buried in his backyard if you hadn’t forgotten. This has been allegedly going on in since 2001! The local Sheriff has just had his thumb up his ass for apparently the last 6 years (neighbors stated that they’ve called the police about the dogs barking). Now if the Feds alleged this started in 2006, then maybe the argument that “Vick didn’t know” might be more appropriate.
By the way, how many houses did Vick buy for other people in his family (other than his parents)? Why was Devon Boddie so special, yet you would claim to believe that Vick didn’t bother talking to him since 2001. Wouldn’t that be unusual that you would talk to or visit a cousin of yours that you purchased an $800K home for? Wouldn’t Vick wish to visit the dogs that he OWNS and just see what the hell is going on?
T3, I don’t think anything I write will change your mind regarding Vick’s innocence/guilt. You would defend Vick no matter what he did and no matter what the evidence is, wouldn’t you? That said, T3, are you prepared to accept the jury’s verdict — since your only defense for Vick seems to be “innocent until proven guilty?” Will you promise not to complain once Vick is finally found guilty (it shouldn’t take long in Virginia)?
Peace
Alert–John Doe is either a government agent, a journailst from Espn or another discredited site or an agent for those ‘lovers of dog above human’ fanatics ( even though he says differently)
If he claims to be rational, it is highly impossible for him to continue contorting himself in his single minded attempt to prove the rest of you wrong, while not even appearing to digest what is being said here. That is unless is agenda is to stir up crap, just because!
To this point he is one of the three worst intruder on this site.
Peace
So let’s see…….the Falcons say “for real though! Really! We was really gonna suspend him…punish him!! buuutttt….Goodell told us not too soooooooo….what could we do??”
And Goodell, an attorney himself, says he’s gonna speak to federal authorities and “determine the strength of their case” before he makes a decision further……LMAO!!!
WHAT?? Are you kidding? So what…the prosecutor is gonna have a lengthy discussion with Goodell, perhaps send over copies of some files, maybe let him have the names of the informants? And Billy Martin is just gonna let Goodell actually proclaim to have “reviewed” the evidence and then take some negative action on Vick? Is anyone but me wondering what date the training camp for the Falcons is officially closed to the public?? Hmmmmmm……probably around the time Mike Vick is back.
That press conference was so pointless and maybe you’re right Miranda, maybe they’re in the ‘set-up the cover-our asses’ mode, but this whole thing has gone down so crazy like I said before…I can’t breathe easy.
It just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Does Goodell really think he can proclaim to have “determined the strength of the evidence” and decide that “yep, you’re guilty, gotta suspend ya” based only on the prosecutions version and no input on the defense? That would be damn near reckless on his part to make a statement like that. It just looks like the convenient “out” for the nutless Falcons brass.
‘Nutless’ Indeed!!!
Miranda,
Where did you see/hear that Goodell would be talking to the prosecution? I am not seeing that anywhere. It has always been my interpretation that he was having the NFL security team do its own investigation.
Anyways, it’s not Billy Martin’s job to do anything but represent Vick in his trial. It would be Joel Segal’s (very quiet, lately) job to deal with any work related issues for Vick.
Seriously, if there weren’t any footballs in the place, there wouldn’t have been any balls there at all. That was just spineless. At the end of the day, they’re trying to figure out who will react worse…..the people claiming to protest and threaten sponsors…or the actual season ticket holders who will stay the hell home if #7 is not on that field.
Cornelius,
“Goodell told Vick the league would complete its review as quickly as possible and that he expected full cooperation. The review is expected to involve conversations with federal law enforcement officials so the NFL can determine the strength of the case against Vick.” http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7052768?MSNHPHCP>1=10239
If public statements by Goodell are going to insinuate guilt or innocence based on his own perception of the evidence, that certainly is Billy Martin’s concern.
Alert!
Sankofa has officially fallen off her rocker! While I’m certainly no government agent, I would say that I am more of a journalist than dwil… although that is not my paid profession.
an agent for those ‘lovers of dog above human’ fanatics
You know, Sankofa, its these types of comments that really bother me. It’s not that I can’t take criticism, it’s that you act as though I or others are asking that the Mike Vick’s dog get better treatment than human — ney, Sankofa, I am merely asking that Mike Vick’s dogs (or anyone’s dogs) are not tortured, abused, or mistreated and that they receive proper care (i.e., food, water, shelter, and an occasional visit to the vet would be nice).
Thanks, Sankofa, you’ve reminded me of a very good point. Why didn’t Mr. $130 Million man (plus who knows what else in endorsements) pay for veterinary visits for his 53 pit bulls? The evidence will come out at trial, but I have heard of no evidence that ANY of these dogs received ANY veterinary care. What, couldn’t Ookie afford it… $800K house for Boddie the alleged drug dealer, and car axles, short chains, and no veterinary care for the 53 pit bulls.
Sankofa, maybe you were raised to believe that food, water, proper shelter, and proper care are “luxuries” for dogs — but I was not raised this way. I love NFL football, but I do find it utterly amazing that you are more worried about Vick not being able to attend four (4) games, but maybe you should pay a little closer attention to another number… seventeen (17), as in seventeen dead dogs buried in Vick’s backyard. Besides, I think this four game suspension will be the least of Vick’s concerns in the weeks and months to come…
P.S. – hey dwil, what are the Vegas odds on Vick being convicted?… oh yeah, that’s right, you already bet all your money on Vick not even being indicted. Damn those guys at ESPN!
John Doe:
I have one point to make. You’re an idjot (not a typo). Why? I’ve never stated a position on Vick’s guilt or innocence. I have repeatedly said I’ll reserve judgment until at least after things have been decided in a court of law – and even then, things may not be decided. There is only one possible way you could have ASSUMED I have a position on his guilt or innocence.
Like I said before, Why are you directing posts to me? I could walk through your post, but for me this isn’t about you per se. I’ve barely read your posts and from the look of your asinine comments directed toward me, you tried to trump me by not reading my posts at all.
When you get around to reading my posts, let me know if you find an opinion on Vick’s innocence…you could even check my blog. Or you could just take my word for it, shut the phuck up and move on. Your choice.
Peace
First…YOU CANNOT TAKE CRITICISM!
Second…I do believe people such as you act as if a dogs life is worth more than a blackman’s. I see it daily where I live!
Third… I don’t need to qualify to you my thoughts on whether a dog requiers proper care or not.
Fourth… I am of the belief that Feds have a (his) story of manufacturing evidence to fit their cases. Where I stand, all these allegations of dog torture put out to the media serves only to demonize Vick to solidify Feds case, thus maximizing the emotional quotient of stunted intellect like your.
Fifth…Perhaps you should go back to dwil’s original postings and actually read the entire contents, then you wouldn’t act so sanctimonious and one sided in your views.
Sixth…”I would say that I am more of a journalist than dwil… although that is not my paid profession”. Does this statement need a response?
Finaly…Sankofa is not a he or she, but a state of being and act of conscious! Don’t hurt your shoulder patting yourself on the back, for world class smarts…your a legend in your on mind.
Peace
There is no question in my mind that John Doe isn’t digesting our numerous and pointed rebuttals. Rebuttals falling at each end of the spectrum. He’s taking the same shot over and over and not progressing his offense at all or dealing with the D.
Like you said T3, ‘walk thru his posts all day,.
I see you Olajuwon!!! LOL
Temple3,
I appreciate the sarcasm, I enjoy using it myself. Here is the problem with your statement, although SportsDiva does a much better job of making the point. All the situations that you address, individuals rights and freedoms were violated without due process. By my making a conclusion that he is probably guilty, in no way causes harm to Mr. Vick unless I am on the jury and refuse to consider any alternative. This is very different from events like the salem Witch trials, where people were killed. I guess to make a fair comparison to your short sited argument, you would have a point if I had incarcerated Mr. Vick for 6 years and fined him 350K without having the trial.
Then you say, something about “you shouldn’t take offense to others exercising their right to assign foul motives to YOU without evidence.” So I can assume by this statement that there is no evidence against mr. vick. If this were the case, there would be no indictment. I have drawn the conclusion that from the evidence provided in the indictment, that he is probably guilty.
Obviously this is a forum where most people do not share my beliefs, but I enjoy coming on here sometimes and reading how people can draw such conclusions. I find it amusing. Temple 3, you should be honored, I find you amusing, in the way that things that are small and harmless are amusing.
As for the asshole comment, hilarious. I never really thought about how I was entitled to have an asshole, I always just kind of took it for granted.
man, so i must get on this thing at the wrong time. I hate having to wait for responses when people aren’t around.
I’ll repost – AND – then I’m gonna reeeeaaaal sloooowwwwww, okay…M-kay.
“Why is everyone here so quick to condemn people for assuming that he is guilty? Don’t I have a right to determine whether or not I think he is guilty? Innocent till proven guilty governs the courts, not me as an individual. On this site, many people have labled others as racist for their opinions or wrong for saying he did these crimes. Have those individuals actually been convicted of being racist, or has a court determined that those posters are wrong?”
I think you SHOULD be quick to assume he’s guilty. There are charges. There are media reports. There is a grand American tradition of premature vilification. Even before the Salem witch trials began, people didn’t need evidence. The same was true with the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII. It was definitely true during Joe McCarthy’s heyday. Whether the case has been situated in Scottsboro, Philadelphia (Mississippi) or anywhere else, folks have every right to gather up a lynch mob (whether real or imagined). And you cannot EVER gather up a lynch mob unless some brave soul jumps the gun. There is nothing wrong with asserting a man is guilty of a felony without evidence to support that claim. Lynch mobs are an inextricable part of the fabric of American life. It is absolutely acceptable and part of the nature of Americans. You’ve done an excellent job of laying out YOUR rights.
Certainly, you shouldn’t take offense to others exercising their right to assign foul motives to YOU without evidence. They too, would be in their rights.
At the end of the day, everyone should say what they want and not worry about what anyone else thinks. Aren’t opinions like assholes. You’re certainly entitled to have one – but not all will be as appealing. It really depends on your audience. You may have stumbled into a place where people believe you to be more an asshole than you perceive yourself to be.
Imagine that…the conclusions people can come to without evidence.”
————–
1) At the top of this piece, I’m not being sarcastic at all. I believe you are well within your rights to argue his guilt without having seen a shred of evidence submitted on his behalf OR having seen evidence submitted against him subjected to cross-examination. I don’t believe I need to say how absurd that proposition is for a society – but for you…it’s fine.
2) You wrote: “All the situations that you address, individuals rights and freedoms were violated without due process. By my making a conclusion that he is probably guilty, in no way causes harm to Mr. Vick unless I am on the jury and refuse to consider any alternative. This is very different from events like the salem Witch trials, where people were killed. I guess to make a fair comparison to your short sited argument, you would have a point if I had incarcerated Mr. Vick for 6 years and fined him 350K without having the trial.”
Answer: If you understand the concept of a slippery slope and that of a community, I don’t need to say anything further. I suspect you don’t – so I’ll add a bit. Frankly, each of those events which culminated in tranvesties of justice began as discussions among people very much like yourself…people with a sense of entitlement to finish the work begun by justice. Your conjecture online is a modern variant on the theme. You’re within your rights to walk out onto that slippery slope and conjecture in a manner that essentially eliminates the right of the accused. You reside in an ethical abyss. In fact, there can be no rational discussion with you because the counter-argument has not been revealed. All that is left if your decision to throw American jurisprudence under the bus for the sake of shits and giggles. You’re in a different time and space, but you evince the heart of the lynch mob. You’re a thug with a keyboard.
3)You wrote: “Then you say, something about “you shouldn’t take offense to others exercising their right to assign foul motives to YOU without evidence.” So I can assume by this statement that there is no evidence against mr. vick. If this were the case, there would be no indictment. I have drawn the conclusion that from the evidence provided in the indictment, that he is probably guilty.”
Answer: No you cannot assume there is no evidence against Mr. Vick. I’m not arguing that. I would argue that you haven’t seen the evidence and you, at this time, cannot vouch for the quality of that evidence. When I studied logic in middle school, we had to use diagrams. Perhaps you should snatch up a pen…no, make that a pencil. I know you’re prone to error.
I am sure someone somewhere can scrounge up evidence that you’re not an asshole. The issue is that no one here has seen it. Moreover, if an employer or boyfriend/partner asserted you were totally cool, it would be little more than a testimonial without empirical support. And if everyone here was like you, they would neither wait to see it nor ever expect it to materialize. In other words, you’d be branded an asshole for life – if folks here were like you.
In the absence of empirical support, all you are left with is conjecture and a propensity for premature ejacu-judgment. Assholes traffic in conjecture because it suits the profile of disseminating unsubstantiated opinion. Inexperienced dicks traffic in premature assessments because they unable to be cool – to be in the moment – and respond accordingly. In a manner of speaking, you should pick yourself up off the floor or, at least, get a towel. If that is to be your lot in life, do you.
Now, I’ve done you enough favors for one lifetime. There are far too many things for you to brush up on for us to attempt this type of dialogue. If you’d like to continue, you’ll have to abandon your irrational thuggish ways and get some of those issues off your chest and out of your heart. I recommend martial arts and meditation. In any event, don’t step over this line again until you’ve decided to act more responsibly and logically.
(And I’ll post this over at my blog – just to make sure you see it.)
My mistake, I thought Goodell was an attorney. The man has a degree in economics….well this explains that dumb statement regarding determining the strength of the feds case and making a decision on Vick’s status.
Sir Temple 3,
1) At the top of this piece, …
Agreed
2) “Answer: If you understand the concept of a slippery slope … to finish the work begun by justice. Your conjecture online is a modern variant on the theme… You’re in a different time and space, but you evince the heart of the lynch mob. You’re a thug with a keyboard.”
I like the “thug with a keyboard” comment. I agree that all the events listed did begin with those who felt it was there responsibility to “finish the work that justice began”. I think that is a very good point. The problem is that you are making the leap and assuming that I want to actually “finish the work”. I don’t really want any harm to come to Mr. Vick unless convicted by the court of law. Personally, if I were the NFL, I would not suspend him. So once again, let me reiterate my point (I assume that you are used to making people repeat things too you, it’s a common characteristic of the righteous) my personally believing that he is guilty in now way limits his “right to pursue happiness” and I don’t want any bad things to happen to the man unless convicted. Hence, why the situations you bring up are not valid (on a side note, my grandparents were actually in the Japanese camps). I would also again like to point out that you have drawn many negative conclusions about myself, and once again based simply on evidence that you have drawn from this site. I would say that is very similar to the same types of conclusions that I have drawn about Mr. Vick. So I would assume that you are also a “thug with a keyboard”.
3) Answer: No you cannot assume there is no evidence against Mr. Vick… When I studied logic in middle school, we had to use diagrams…
Couple points. First, I doubt you ever actually passed middle school. (Ok, that was childish, I am sorry) Second, if you did not intend to argue that point, then the placement of your statements was poor. And you are correct; I can’t vouch for the quality of the evidence. I can assume that the evidence must have some merit, otherwise it would have been thrown out, but as has been stated several times on this board, the defense has no opportunity to rebuke such evidence.
“I am sure someone somewhere can scrounge up evidence that you’re not an asshole…
Once again, very eloquently put. Couple issues though. How does one define an asshole, and how does one provide empirical evidence to support such a claim? Also, if everyone here were like me, I would have no reason to visit this site. And finally, I can only assume that you are stating that I “would neither wait to see it (evidence to support Vick) nor ever expect it to materialize”. I can promise you this; I have no problem when admitting that I was wrong (this is a requirement for dating) and would gladly come on this site and admit as much if Mr. Vick turns out to be innocent. In fact, I wouldn’t even wait for a court to verify this; all I would need is some evidence that supports him. Until that time, I am still going to believe that he is probably guilty.
“Now, I’ve done you enough favors for one lifetime…
I think you have a very effective way of trying to degrade and talk down to opponents. It causes them to become angry or lose their cool. This causes them to slip up and make mistakes. Here is the problem. See, I think you are a fool, although probably well educated. You make very valid arguments against points that I am not trying to make, and declare that you are a winner, although without actually saying it. This is your right, and I respect this. But you should know one thing; I take your comments with a smile because I truly think you are beneath me. That is why I am an asshole.
(And I’ll post this over at your blog – just to make sure you see it.)
Temple3,
So the word “idjot” is not a typo, T3? Well, excuse me for questioning your superior intellect, but please show me a link to the definition of the word “idjot.” And while you’re at it, genius, why don’t you email Merriam-Webster, as this word apparently isn’t known to that publication, either. Although, what does Merriam-Webster know, anyway?
I must give Go Bucs some credit, as he is right on target with his comments about you. I think you displayed your true colors when you wrote the line:
I have repeatedly said I’ll reserve judgment until at least after things have been decided in a court of law – and even then, things may not be decided.
Oh, T3, “so even then things may not be decided.” Oh, so we should wait months for the jury trial to render a decision in this case – AND EVEN THEN – you may not accept it. So my premonition was correct; if a guilty verdict is rendered in the Vick trial, you will still claim he is not guilty – and therefore don’t claim he is – because his appeal has not yet been heard or decided.
Forgive me if I’m not beside myself with your claimed impartiality. Listen I will, however, be man enough to give you your due… you have not explicitly proclaimed Vick to be innocent of these charges. While it is true you are not “making up” evidence to defend Vick, it is also true that you are deliberately ignoring all of the evidence against him and not so much as censuring him for owning the property where a drug bust occurred and 17 dead dogs were buried. I guess that picture of that pit bull seized from Vick’s property with scars all over its face – provided by twil’s own link – didn’t sway you at all.
And for those of you that claim outrage that Vick has been suspended four (4) games without being convicted in a court of law, I will remind you that playing in the NFL is not some indelible Constitutional right. I think that even T3 might agree with that comment. Every week, if not every day, in America people are accused of sexual harassment in the workplace. Do the accused get their day in a court of law before their employer cans them? Do the employers of those accused of sexual harassment say that “well, since the allegations of those seventeen women that complained about Joe making sexual advances and engaging in inappropriate touching has not been proven in a court of law, I think we should not fire Joe until he has exhausted all of his legal options… including any appeals.” T3, if you were the CEO of that company, what would you do? That’s not a rhetorical question, T3, I’m serious, what would you do with Joe? What would the rest of you that are “upset” with the NFL’s decision to temporarily suspend Vick do to Joe?
T3, I’ve run into your type before. You remind me of the people that say Scooter Libby should have been pardoned because no underlying crime was proven in the outing of Valerie Plame. Excuse me? When did lying to a federal investigator or prosecutor become acceptable when an underlying crime has not been proven? You might ask these same people where they were when Martha Stewart had her ass thrown in federal prison for lying to a federal investigator (and that was just over an illicit stock trade).
So, T3, I guess we come back to the point… if the highly vaunted American justice system – albeit the even more esteemed federal court system – finds Michael Dwayne Vick to be guilty of the crimes charged in the eighteen page indictment… will you Mr. Temple3 – who so values the decision of a court of law above all else – accept the jury’s verdict? Do you promise not to complain that “the trial was unfair” or that “we haven’t waited for the Appellate Court’s decision?”
T3, are you there? Do you “hear” me?
For GoBucks:
#2. “The problem is that you are making the leap and assuming that I want to actually ‘finish the work’.”
No I’m not. I haven’t assumed any such thing. In fact, were you born in another era, it would have been sufficient to fuel the fire without ever getting on your horse. You could have stayed behind in the saloon drinking whiskey – or – you could slink off to mask your cowardice (if applicable) at a house of ill repute. You would have all manner of options – but I wouldn’t assume you’d actually engage in the violence. I don’t have any indications on that.
#2a. “I would also again like to point out that you have drawn many negative conclusions about myself, and once again based simply on evidence that you have drawn from this site. I would say that is very similar to the same types of conclusions that I have drawn about Mr. Vick. So I would assume that you are also a ‘thug with a keyboard’.”
Actually, the principle conclusion that I’ve drawn is that you have a believe it is acceptable to presume guilt based on charges presented by one side – in this particular case. I cannot assume you believe your grandparents should have been stripped of their freedoms, forced to sell their homes at a below market rate or robbed of their employment. Perhaps you feel it was justified (if all that happened). Perhaps you don’t. In any case, if I were to hazard a guess, I’d say that your grandparents emerged from those camps with a steely resolve that contributed greatly to your material well-being. Continuing along the guessing lines, if you attended OSU as an undergrad, that resulted from one of several causes – you family sought to get away from the East or West Coast for either employment or social reasons (sound decision); or you’re a bit of an underachiever. If you were a grad student there, you’re probably better than average at what you do – but you’ve derived a sense of entitlement from the struggles of your immediate ancestors…very little of that is actually attributable to your own effort – hence your clear revulsion at MV7 based on allegations. But, I digress.
#3) “I can assume that the evidence must have some merit, otherwise it would have been thrown out”
You could assume that – however, that would be obfuscation at its best. Your position is that Vick is guilty based on the quality of unseen evidence. Backtracking to the low standard that this unseen evidence has “some merit” is the equivalent of dumping the reasonable doubt standard which attends felony trials. “Some merit” is appropriate for civil trials, backyard barbecues and shits and giggles. It is not okay for presumptions of guilt or innocence in felony trials.
#3a) “I am sure someone somewhere can scrounge up evidence that you’re not an asshole…
Once again, very eloquently put. Couple issues though. How does one define an asshole, and how does one provide empirical evidence to support such a claim?
–Actually, in your scenario, there is no reason to define asshole or gather evidence to support that claim…you haven’t seen the evidence against Vick and the claim itself is sufficient. The lever for you (help me out here) is either trust you’ve placed in “the state” (the government) or in the grand jury or the grand jury process or some combination, thereof.
If I wanted to embark down the same road, I would need only trust myself (I would be the equivalent of the state). If I can convince folks at TSF (the grand jury) that you’re an asshole, that would be equivalent to the position you’ve arrived at. I would simply use your presumptive posts and smug attitude (which is improving, I must say). That’s the indictment. The evidence can wait until the trial – which you certainly have no use for.
#3b) “I have no problem when admitting that I was wrong (this is a requirement for dating) and would gladly come on this site and admit as much if Mr. Vick turns out to be innocent. In fact, I wouldn’t even wait for a court to verify this; all I would need is some evidence that supports him. Until that time, I am still going to believe that he is probably guilty.”
You think it’s a requirement for dating…wait till you get married!! You don’t have to admit you’re wrong if Vick is innocent. It’s immaterial. I don’t have an opinion or preference with respect to MV7. The issue at hand is the implication of assuming his guilt BEFORE evidence in favor or against has been reviewed and subjected to tests of evidence and counter argumentation. Exhibits and testimony submitted in evidence by prosecutors get challenged all the time…what looks like evidence to the public before a trial may be stricken by a judge during a trial. You don’t need to come back to talk about Michael Vick.
#4) “See, I think you are a fool, although probably well educated. You make very valid arguments against points that I am not trying to make, and declare that you are a winner, although without actually saying it. This is your right, and I respect this. But you should know one thing; I take your comments with a smile because I truly think you are beneath me. That is why I am an asshole.”
I don’t know what any of this rambling means – and neither do you.
John Doe:
smug as a bug in a rug…
the spelling of idiot which i used was phonetic and a reference to its use in the Caribbean…this has never been about you. you’re still an idjot – no matter how you spell it.
JD:
Seriously…why do you bother?
Did it ever occur to you that Vick might try to take a plea and I’d think he was guilty of greater crimes? Probably not.
Did you read my blog on Scooter Libby? Hell naw…
Did you dare deal with my gracious post to your ignant ass yesterday? Nope.
Where did the get the idea that I “so values the decision of a court of law above all else”? Never mind.
By the way J.D., you’re clearer older and closer to the edge of the lunactic fringe that GoBucks. Don’t incite that boy to say stoopid shit that neither of you can defend.
Idjot!
Temple 3,
Your best post.
#2. No I’m not. I haven’t assumed any such thing… to mask your cowardice (if applicable) at a house of ill repute…
OK, first off, why are you speaking down about the house of ill repute? (joke)
Maybe I just have a difficult time with the way you word your points. You claim that you are not trying to make the point that I would actually lynch someone (if I grew up in more barbaric times) but then use lynching as an example of why my conclusions are dangerous. I think our differences on this issue maybe summed up like this. You seem to think that the conclusions that people draw are dangerous, and I can’t say I completely disagree with you. But for me, the real danger is in the way people respond to these conclusions. I think OJ probably murdered his wife, but I don’t try to gather a mob and prevent OJ from pursuing his rights, so am I really harming OJ? If I grew up in Salem 250 years ago, I might have thought women were witches, but I would not have gathered a mob nor supported those who attempted to persecute them.
#2a. Actually, the principle conclusion that I’ve drawn is that you have a believe it is acceptable to presume guilt based on charges presented by one side…
On this one, I have to say you are just wrong. I have drawn my conclusions on all evidence available to me at this time, not just that which was presented from one side. This is why I mentioned that if the defense presented evidence then my opinion may change. Now obviously, more evidence has been presented that persecutes Mr. Vick, then that which vindicates him. I guess my opinion on that is, why is Mr. Vick not making his case in the public. He is not an individual that lacks a forum, although I do understand why he would maintain his silence, as he does not his comments to damage his defense case. I respect that, but until I hear more evidence, I will continue to assume that his is probably guilty.
I cannot assume you believe your grandparents…
This was the best part of your post. You were pretty much spot on. My family did immigrate way from the west coast. I attended as an undergrad, although not because of one of the reasons you listed, but because of both. My sense of entitlement comes from my believe that all man is entitled to his opinions, and as long as they in no way prevent others from persuing their freedoms. My sense of superiority comes from the fact that I am generally better at what I do than most.
#3) “Some merit” is appropriate for civil trials, backyard barbecues and shits and giggles. It is not okay for presumptions of guilt or innocence in felony trials.
I do not say that Mr. Vick is guilty, I cannot make that claim. I can say that I believe he is probably guilty. If I have said it in previous post, than I was wrong. And I completely agree that it is not okay for presumptions of guilt or innocence in felony trials… But see, to me, this is a backyard barbecue/shits and giggles site. Unless someone informs me otherwise, I don’t think the felony trial’s decision hangs in the balance on my conclusion on this website that he is probably guilty.
#3a) lever for you (help me out here) is either trust you’ve placed in “the state”…
Yes, you are correct, trust in those institutions. And if you have the same trust in yourself, and this site. Then you can use such an indictment to make the same type of conclusion that I have. That in your opinion, I am most likely an asshole. I guess the thing to consider, is do the readers on this site require the same degree of evidence to make such a conclusion as Federal Grand Juries. I have my doubts.
#3b) You think it’s a requirement for dating…wait till you get married!! (this made me laugh, and your most valid point.)
In fact, after having read your point, I think I pretty much agree with it in it’s entirety. My opinion is this, I don’t have a problem with people drawing conclusions based on information presented to them at any moment in time. Now if those individuals, say myself, refused to acknowldedge one side of the facts, or refused to accept new information, then there is a serious issue. Or lets say that I said that he is without a doubt guilty, and I wanted to persecute him, then once again, that would be an issue. I just don’t have a problem with people drawing conclusions as long as they keep it in context… Yes, it is still early, and yes most of the information coming out is simply from one side, so obviously there is the potential for him to be innocent. I am simply not going to tell someone that they are wrong because they believe one way or another, and also not going to accept others telling me that I am wrong, ignorant/stupid/racist/an asshole, just because I have drawn a conclusion.
#4) and neither do you…
Actually, I have a pretty good idea, even if I didn’t express my thoughts as well as I should have.
Everyone,
I encourage you to read the following story that touches upon the difference between a verdict in a court of law and peronal opinion/decision (such as the one the NFL has recently made regarding the suspension of Vick):
This is precisely the right thing to do, but the commissioner’s bold action coupled with some public pronouncements from those of us in the opinion business have sparked misguided claims that Mr. Vick’s rights have somehow been abrogated.
The question rains down: “What about the presumption of innocence?”
Is it possible that so many people misunderstand this concept? Do people really believe that the presumption of innocence is an obligation borne by employers and the general public?
Let me unburden anyone saddled with that misconception. The presumption of innocence is what we are owed by the judicial system, not our bosses or our neighbors. The NFL can suspend Mr. Vick until this is settled one way or the other. Columnists, carpenters and pastry chefs may speak at length about their gut instincts about the guilt or innocence of any defendant in the news.
So, having outed myself as one who believes Mr. Vick is guilty, I now must apparently justify my level of disgust, as well as my early comfort with my conclusion.
“Why don’t you seem as upset with a white referee fixing NBA games?” asks one e-mailer. “Why don’t you give Vick the same benefit of the doubt you gave the white lacrosse players at Duke?” asks another.
The whiteness invoked in both questions is wholly irrelevant. In the case of NBA official Tim Donaghy, I am thoroughly incensed at the prospect of any referee gambling on a game he officiates. But that simply does not rise to the level of visceral distaste I have for anyone operating something as vicious and violent as Mr. Vick’s Bad Newz Kennels. Make it Tony Romo running the dog-fighting ring, or a black ref throwing games, and my feelings would not change.
As for the Duke lacrosse case, the comparison is simply silly. The Vick indictment is nearly 20 pages of solid observations by reliable witnesses that he was at the center of this bloodthirsty operation. On the other hand, accuser Crystal Mangum’s accusations against the Duke players began to unravel almost immediately.
The Vick case is not piloted by a sinister local DA looking to score cheap political points. The federal batting average for prosecutions is astronomically high, a track record based on the feds’ tendency to pursue only those cases featuring compelling evidence of guilt.
There are surely some who gleefully conclude Mr. Vick’s guilt because it fits an unfortunately prevalent pattern of black athletes opting for ridiculous “gangsta” behavior egged on by the fringes of hip-hop culture.
That would be racist. But so, too, are those who rush to exonerate him for race-based reasons.
The wheels of justice will now turn for Michael Vick. The charges will be harder to duck than any linebacker he ever faced.
http://www.dallasnews.com, July 25, 2007, Mark Davis
You can read the entire article at:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-markdavis_25edi.ART.State.Edition1.4249942.html
Aside from the fact that that article is bullshit, it’s brilliant. Nice job JD. In any case, I don’t believe anyone should be denied their right to presume Vick’s guilt. I said exactly that to GoBucks. Still, it is impossible for anyone with even the vaguest sense of history to ignore the implications of that very practice. Consider the pandemonium invoked by frazzled Robert Smith in Boston. His use of racially specific bait fueled a city-wide roundup in Boston. And, as I indicated in earlier posts, the issue does not have to be related to “race” or racism.
The question of the extent to which the public bears the presumption of innocence is irrelevant to this particular website and its related conversation concerning Michael Vick. There are a number of posters here willing to wait on the judicial process. There are a number of posters unwilling to wait on the process. Those unwilling to wait have universally sallied forth with the opinion that MV7 is guilty. For that, those posters have been met with resistance – and often with charges of racism.
In the context of this particular website, you have a group (let’s call them the ConVicktors) who are exercising their right to make judgments but they are operating in what amounts to a modified informational vacuum. On the other hand, you have a group (let’s call them the Inspectors) who are exercising their right to reserve judgment and acknowledge they are operating in what amounts to a modified informational vacuum. Both the ConVicktors and the Inspectors understand that 1 side of the story has been told. The ConVicktors simply don’t care.
I can see how this would lead to an argumentative situation. After all, it’s caused you to loose your moorings.
You actually a link to article where the author contrasts an indictment with a defendant’s story, rather than simply comparing the indictments. That’s weak. It’s known as a comparison of apples and oranges. It facilitates obfuscation or changing the subject. It’s a shoddy implement of compelling argumentation.
—-
Seriously, why do you bother?
An interesting article by Jason Cole.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-vickleave072407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Apparently, an associate of Vick’s says that he has not until recently grasped the seriousness of the charges against him.
The article says Goodell ordering him away from camp was the wake-up call. It also says those close to Vick are hoping Billy Martin convinces him that playing right now is not the most important thing on his plate.
That article was a complete and utter farce and is actually more idiotic than most of the things you’ve penned yourself John Doe. And he uses complete falsehoods to make his points.
First of all, I think that this author knows something that the rest of the sporting world doesn’t know. He cites “solid observations” from “reliable witnesses.” Has he met these witnesses? Has he done a background check on them and figured out they were reliable. And if these were such stand-up guys…why were they at a dogfight to see Vick anyway?
And when did Mike Nifong become “sinister.” Because he ended up being wrong? When did Mike Nifong become something different than every other DA in America–DA’s who bend the rules to push for indictments and convictions to advance their career. Just because the case got nationwide coverage and he endd up having an unreliable key witness makes him by no means sinister. He has done what every DA has done. And what is different about the federal prosecutor? What, since he’s more experienced he won’t do the same things to get a conviction (which is his job)? He’s not looking to be the guy who brought down Mike Vick? Really? When you hear about some other defendants cutting deals with him to get to Vick, I’m sure that won’t be labeled as sinister, but Nifong, oh, he’s an ANIMAL.
The gangsta rap reference is so ridiculous it doesnt really need a response. But the comment, “But so, too, are those who rush to exonerate him for race-based reasons,” does. He mentions this notion of “those,” which gives off the impression that people actually exist that are saying he is innocent because he is black. That’s absolutely ludicrous. There are people, however, who are convinced the man is guilty because he is black (and thus, a thug, a gangsta rapper, or w/e).
I think its a good debate showing the merits of having your own opinion about the case and being able to draw your conclusions. The “court of public opinion” is an interesting thing. I think the best point is from Temple when he said that everyone has the right to come to their own opinion. But everyone also has the right to scrutinize where that opinion came from, ESPECIALLY given that those who are convicting Vick know for a fact they don’t have all the information. Lest we forget, in our actual legal courts, the people deciding guilt or innocence are deciding it based on their OPINION of guilt or innocence. however, the system of presenting evidence and witnesses and cross-examining them was put in place because it was the manner in which people believed that someone is able to make a REASONED OPINION by. All the elements of a criminal case are put there because one cannot make an informed opinion without these things. For anyone to lower their burden of proof is admitting that they’re not making an informed opinion. And if you’re OK with that…..well then I guess that’s you.
Temple3,
I’m losing my “moorings?” Let me remind you of some of your own quotes about me:
“You’re an idjot (not a typo).”
“Or you could just take my word for it, shut the phuck up and move on.”
Not very pragmatic, Temple3. Oh, and by the way, the Scooter Libby scenario was only an example of people who often have ridiculous and hypocritical view points (e.g., Libby defenders know it’s illegal to lie to a federal agent and in front of grand jury, but they excuse it because their political fervor blinds them to reason… and those same people are often the same hypocrites that wanted to impeach Bill Clinton for lying under oath about getting a B.J. from Monica Lewinski). I in no way made any inference that you, Temple3, believed Scooter Libby to be innocent.
Michael Irvin talked to the Stews on Mon and they re-aired the 1st part of the interview yesterday, 2nd part will be re-aired today. He was pretty candid and spoke from the perspective of a player who had to be in court during a season and what it meant to be able to get on the field while all of that was going on. Interesting stuff, really good interview.
Dear Mr. John Doe,
Idjot! I just have one comment about your posts: Dwil specifically says in one of his last comments to you that the crime is a felony in VA and WAS a misdemeanor federally…while your contributions have been entertaining (and disgusting, you make clear that as a society there is room for “concious” evolution), please consider having a peaceful frame of mind and excercise your demons of animal injustice the best way you can. FYI – Landmark Forum, a crash course on how to have the life of your dreams is up your alley…I’m being serious an nice about this. And please leave Temple3 alone, he is kick ass in his rebuttals (my opinion/asshole).
Dear Mr. John Doe,
By the way, Dwil is not responding to you anymore, and I don’t blame him. But you didn’t get that far in his post to read that now did you!
TO ALL-
“MR. JOHN DOE HAS BEEN BANNED FROM TSF… EVERYONE KNOW WHAT HE’S DONE. HE’S ON THE SPAM TRAP LIST. HOPEFULLY, I WON’T HAVE TO CONTINUE TO RUN BEHIND HIM AND MARK MANY MORE OF HIS RECENT COMMENTS. I APOLOGIZE FOR ALLOWING HIM TO STAY THIS LONG….
Dwil,
THANK YOU.
Guess what y’all… this isn’t about race. This is about race AND money. Look at how the media and the feds are handling this…
Tell me what the media coverage of Chris Benoit has revolved around. It has revolved around a tragic family man who was pulled into a life of consistent drugs and steroid use that ravaged his body, threw him into depression and caused him to commit such a heinous crime. Imagine if Michael Vick killed his wife and children… wait a minute… you see what they are doing to him about ALLEGEDLY killing dogs. I don’t even want to know what they would do about the PROVEN killing of a person…
Speaking of the killing of a person… What about Danny Heatley killing his teammate while driving at extremely reckless speeds? Heatley did not go to jail, nor did he get suspended (correct me if I am wrong on this), and nor did he get any really negative feedback from fans/media. Danny Heatley, at the time a member of the Atlanta Thrashers, was CONVICTED of vehicular homicide in the death of his teammate Dan Snyder while driving too fast here in Atlanta.
What about the Patrick Kearney rape case. That happened in his house nonetheless and while he was present. When is he going to be suspended? Is alleged dog fighting more heinous or egregious than PROVEN rape? I’m patiently waiting on the NFL to say something.
Also Jonathan Babineaux, another Falcon player who is black by the way, killed his dog with a hammer. Let me repeat that… KILLED HIS DOG WITH A HAMMER. No one said anything, PETA or anyone else. Ahem… where was PETA? Oh… my bad, he has no money. I’m still waiting on the NFL… he’s at training camp as we speak.
These guys have ALL broken the law and have yet to be punished for it as severely as Mr. Vick is being punished by the NFL or the media… AND he hasn’t been convicted of anything. You are ALL hypocrites!
I hope that you are all vegetarians. As I see it, raising cattle to be slaughtered for human consumption (or pigs or goats or lamb or fish for that matter) is no different than raising and training dogs to fight, even to the death. The slaughter of animals is no less of a cause of death to the animals than a dog fight is a cause of death to the dogs. Generally the animals we eat are cut while alive so that they will bleed as much as possible – helps the quality of the meat.
The consumption of animals is no more necessary than a dog fight. Both are sheerly for human pleasure. Meat is a luxury.(everything you can get from meat from a sustenance and nutritional perspective can be gotten from non-meat sources) Assuming we were never lost in the wilderness in the winter, every single one of us could survive our entire natural lives without ever consuming meat.
Are you hypocrites as eager to refute the meat and poultry industries as you are to refute Michael Vick (who by the way you don’t know what specifically he’s done if anything.)? Hmmmmm? The reason why you Walt Disney raised children know nothing is because you are happy being ignorant. If these dogs looked like snakes or spiders i’m sure you’d have no problem with their fighting. You’re only getting your collective panties in a wad because you’re thinking about this emotionally and you all actually ‘like’ dogs.
Where is the logic. You wear leather right? You eat meat right? Where is the outrage about the industries that allow you those pleasures? The reason you’re not upset with them is that you don’t see the cruelty that goes into killing a cow.
I’ve thought for a while that it might be a good idea to make people slaughter an animal, in order to be licensed to eat meat. It would combat the sort of happiness in ignorance that people enjoy today. I know I know… you’re saying that this isn’t about eating meat it’s about dog fighting… to that I say you fool! It’s about the hypocrisy. The hypocrisy that allows you to say that this one way of being cruel to animals is ok while another way isn’t. Cruelty is cruelty right? Or is cruelty only cruelty when it suits your selfish, hypocritical purposes?
We eat bacon because we take pleasure from it, not because it is necessary to our survival or health. It gives us pleasure, just as Mr. Vick took pleasure from watching dogs tear each other apart. In order for Mr. Vick to derive this pleasure, dogs had to be tortured; in order for us to derive the pleasure of eating bacon, pigs must be tortured.
I should add, incidentally, that what Vick’s pit bulls went through during their miserable lives is a far cry from what a pig goes through in a factory farm. Barely out of the womb, piglets are held up by one leg and subjected to the following: without anesthetic, their genitals are cut off, their tails are cut off, their ears are sliced, and their teeth are pulled out with pliers. This is how they BEGIN their lives. The rest of it will be spent in a space barely large enough to move. It’s essentially a life-long torture chamber for a sentient animal with a nervous system fully capable of feeling pain just like you do.
If you eat pork, you will be responsible for approximately one thousand of these life-long torture sessions. Vick only had, what, 70 dogs? It’s not even close.
The only reason eating meat is legal is that we like it. And the only reason that Mr. Vick is being killed in the media is that he’s black. I’m not surprised… it’s been that way for well over a while now. It’s not at all about cruelty to animals. If it were about cruelty to animals then Mr. Vick would not even be mentioned in the same breath as the meat and poultry industries.
Oh and you all act like we’re SUPPOSED to trust the police and the FBI. *LOL* Are you kidding. Seriously tell me you’re kidding. Why would I or Mr. Vick trust the police or the FBI? Oh I know… if you didn’t do anything wrong you’d have nothing to fear right? Give me a damn break! I’ve seen planted evidence and beaten confessions too many times.
Vick ALLEGEDLY tortured and killed maybe a hundred dogs. This occurs every hour at Huntingdon Life Sciences and other corporations who specialize in animal testing, often for products like artificial sweeteners and cosmetics. Like most research companies, Huntingdon Life Sciences uses beagles as their dog of choice. Whereas Pit bulls are chosen for their ferocity, beagles are chosen for their docility. If you want to see what happens to these beagles, as well as cats, chimps and a virtual Noah’s ark of other animals, visit this site:
http://www.shac.net/HLS/exposed.html
It’s harrowing reading, and makes Vick’s ALLEGED dog fights look like a walk in the park.
Once again we’re talking about the torture of animals to produce products that give us pleasure. In this case dogs AND cats as well as our closest relatives in the animal kingdom. Yet while Vick is being crucified in the media and many here calling for his head on a stake, there is narry a peep about the infinitely more monstrous and vastly larger torture operations taking place in research facilities across the country and the world.
Let’s also take a look at Nike while we’re at it. Take a look at this video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LSHQv9FhvVA
It seems that Nike actually hired dogs that were trained to attack one another. They also hired cameramen to film them as well as handlers to handle the dogs… YET they now want to frown upon dogfighting when they actually MADE a commercial that glorified dogfighting as street and hip in order to hawk some shoes. So…. Nike DOES like the competitiveness of dogfighting…. ain’t that a shock?
Boy y’all damn white people kill me!
(Disclaimer: The above sentence was merely an attempt at humor. Not an invitation. I know y’all hate us for whatever reason, forgive us for not wanting to work in cotton fields from “can’t see” until “can’t see” for no pay or not wanting to have our babies cut out of our stomachs when we weren’t obedient enough.)
Oh… and to you people supporting PETA:
http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm
Enjoy…